stanc Wrote:...It's been said by other Grendel fans, none of whom have professed any expertise or experience in design and fabrication of machine gun links...
Not true -- we did track down at least one person familiar with the process. He indicated that the development of the link is straightforward, but building the necessary stamping dies is prohibitively costly unless a serious and funded development program is in place to support the build.
I don't however, recall whether that discussion was in this incarnation of the forum or the old one. Either way, you or anyone else is welcome to search through several hundred posts to find it.
This bone has been chewed enough, let's move on to more critical items in the quest for a new machine gun.
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JASmith Wrote:The question of link 'do-ability' has been beaten to death. Yes, it's old news for you and other long-time forum members. But, since Cory was apparently unaware of the issue, I sought to bring him up to speed on the subject. To have ignored his questions would've been inconsiderate.
Quote:It is time to put it on the shelf in favor of issues more critical to what will result in an adoptable squad and platoon level light and medium machine guns.
What is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links???
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JASmith Wrote:stanc Wrote:...It's been said by other Grendel fans, none of whom have professed any expertise or experience in design and fabrication of machine gun links... Not true -- we did track down at least one person familiar with the process. He indicated that the development of the link is straightforward... As I recall, said individual had some experience in stamping sheet metal parts, but no experience in design and development of machine gun links.
Quote:I don't however, recall whether that discussion was in this incarnation of the forum or the old one. Either way, you or anyone else is welcome to search through several hundred posts to find it.
Uh, if you're going to cite it as support for your position, shouldn't you search for it?
Quote:This bone has been chewed enough, let's move on to more critical items in the quest for a new machine gun.
Again, what is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links? Without a usable link design, there can't be a belt-fed machine gun.
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stanc Wrote:As I recall, said individual had some experience in stamping sheet metal parts, but no experience in design and development of machine gun links.
Uh, if you're going to cite it as support for your position, shouldn't you search for it?
Again, what is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links? Without a usable link design, there can't be a belt-fed machine gun.
Uhhhh.....Don't you usually design the LMG first, then design the links that will work with whatever cartridge you decide you want to run in the gun? As I recall, past MG's have used some standard cartridge, then changed to whatever the cartridge was that the end user wanted. (I'll grant that sometimes the end user cartridge was predetermined, but regardless, the gun came first, then the link.)
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
stanc Wrote:...Again, what is more critical to a Grendel LMG than design and development of viable links? Without a usable link design, there can't be a belt-fed machine gun... Stan, the focus on this issue to the detriment of others keeps folks from moving forward.
You have shown that you really don't know what goes into link design, and that you are absolutely unwilling to accept the judgements of a growing number of people that the issue, while import, is not worth solving just now.
We know the link is a critical part, but NOT the issue that will cause the project to fail. The continued beating of this horse will keep folks from discussing other, and even more critical, issues.
We really would like to see your list of these issues. It would make an excellent starting point. We would be disappointed of links do not show on the list, but truly annoyed if they are the ONLY item on the list.
Let's move on to those other issues.
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bwaites Wrote:Uhhhh.....Don't you usually design the LMG first, then design the links that will work with whatever cartridge you decide you want to run in the gun? As I recall, past MG's have used some standard cartridge, then changed to whatever the cartridge was that the end user wanted. (I'll grant that sometimes the end user cartridge was predetermined, but regardless, the gun came first, then the link.) I dunno, Bill. I've never designed a machine gun. 
However, I would think that if a new machine gun was being designed from scratch, link development would be done at least in parallel, what with it being absolutely critical to gun operation.
As to a hypothetical 6.5 Grendel LMG, I'm inclined to think that development of a completely new weapon is unlikely. Since the cartridge was designed as an alternative to 5.56mm, I'd expect manufacturers like FN and HK to simply Grendelize their existing M249/Mk46 and MG4 machine guns. In which case, link development would still be of utmost importance.
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Will link development be important, yes. Will it be elementary, most certainly. Shall we move on, please.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
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JASmith Wrote:We know the link is a critical part, but NOT the issue that will cause the project to fail. I disagree. Link design is the one issue that can cause it to fail. Without viable links, there can be no belt-fed machine gun, which would render any other issue moot.
Quote:The continued beating of this horse will keep folks from discussing other, and even more critical, issues.
We really would like to see your list of these issues.
Let's move on to those other issues.
Joe, I am not the one who has been repeatedly saying there are other issues. You are.
I have asked you twice what those supposed issues are, but each time you have refused to answer.
If you wish to discuss them, you'll have to provide the list. (And may I suggest it be in the Military sub-forum, which would be more appropriate.)
Stan, do you really think that this kind of sophomoric argument makes any valid points?
Go on the the next topic so we can have an intelligent conversation again.
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JASmith Wrote:Stan, do you really think that this kind of sophomoric argument makes any valid points? Non sequitur. Do you really think you can intimidate me by such thinly veiled insults?
Quote:Go on the the next topic so we can have an intelligent conversation again.
Just what is the next topic, Joe? You've now evaded answering me for the third time as to what are your "other, and even more critical, issues" regarding a 5.56mm M249 replacement, issues that you say merit discussion.
And for the record, you and Cory are as much to blame as I, for this lengthy focus on the link issue.
The challenge is you to think about what other issues might be important.
I gave you and the forum a list two or three iterations of this discussion ago. You are welcome to search for it, or develop your own.
In the meantime, your obsession on the link truly distracts from what might be an otherwise healthy debate.
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JASmith Wrote:The challenge is you to think about what other issues might be important.
I gave you and the forum a list two or three iterations of this discussion ago. You are welcome to search for it, or develop your own. Thanks, but I don't care to do either. If you don't have enough interest in your supposed "critical issues" to bring them up for discussion, why should I or anyone else bother to do it for you?
Quote:In the meantime, your obsession on the link truly distracts from what might be an otherwise healthy debate.
I'm not obsessed with it. I merely replied to Cory's query about why " there is some problem with getting links for the Grendel case." I was then drawn into a back and forth with him, answering his objections to my view of the issue.
If continuing to reply, first to Cory, then to you, makes me "obsessive" with the subject, then by that measure, both of you would have to be considered obsessed with it, too. In case you didn't notice, I wasn't the only person filling up the last three pages with posts about link design.
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At any rate, I suppose the topic of this thread, the 6.5x40, is as DOA as the 6.5 Grendel (6.5x38.7) as far as a military cartridge candidate goes, since disintegrating links cannot possibly be made for an LMG that chambers either cartridge. Right, Stan?
John
:: 6.5 GRENDEL Deer and Targets :: 6mmARC Targets and Varmints and Deer :: 22 ARC Varmints and Targets
:: I Drank the Water :: Revelation 21:6 ::
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04-08-2014, 09:27 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-08-2014, 10:35 PM by stanc.)
Right, John.
![[Image: big-thumbs-up-smiley-emoticon.gif]](http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/yes/big-thumbs-up-smiley-emoticon.gif)
A cartridge case length of about 43mm is necessary to use the M27 link without shortening the length of the link, or narrowing the link loops:
[video=youtube;C5Gfho2qtwY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Gfho2qtwY[/video]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Gfho2qtwY
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HANKA Wrote:At any rate, I suppose the topic of this thread, the 6.5x40, is as DOA as the 6.5 Grendel (6.5x38.7) as far as a military cartridge candidate goes, since disintegrating links cannot possibly be made for an LMG that chambers either cartridge. Right, Stan?
Someone needs to inform the various orgs headed down this path.... otherwise they might spend millions, then never deploy. Oh, wait... nevermind!
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pinzgauer Wrote:Someone needs to inform the various orgs headed down this path.... otherwise they might spend millions, then never deploy. Oh, wait... nevermind!
Shit yeah you're right. Maybe in a couple of decades the science will advance enough for us to accomplish this engineering marvel. Our time and money is best spent on simpler things, like putting men on mars.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
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cory Wrote:Shit yeah you're right. Maybe in a couple of decades the science will advance enough for us to accomplish this engineering marvel. Our time and money is best spent on simpler things, like putting men on mars. Hey, I'd love to see us put people on Mars! 
As for the matter of machine gun links, the solution is quite simple: Adopt a cartridge with case dimensions compatible with the M27 link configuration.
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stanc Wrote:Hey, I'd love to see us put people on Mars!
As for the matter of machine gun links, the solution is quite simple: Adopt a cartridge with case dimensions compatible with the M27 link configuration.
Stan is there something you're not telling us? Do you own stock in the patent for the M27 link??? HAHA
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
stanc Wrote:I dunno, Bill. I've never designed a machine gun. ...
stanc Wrote:...As for the matter of machine gun links, the solution is quite simple: Adopt a cartridge with case dimensions compatible with the M27 link configuration. Your claim in the second quote suggests that you have significant knowledge relating to the details of machine gun design. The first quote indicates that you do not have this knowledge.
You can't have it both ways.
Continuing to push an opinion that one is entitled to but does not have the knowledge to be credible with only hurts the forum.
Everyone would now be best served to accept that there are differences in opinion and move on.
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JASmith Wrote:Your claim in the second quote suggests that you have significant knowledge relating to the details of machine gun design. The first quote indicates that you do not have this knowledge.
You can't have it both ways. <sigh> Flawed reasoning, Joe. Just because I've never designed a machine gun, doesn't mean I know nothing about them.
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