6.5 Grendel Variants, Good or Bad?

[Tedward]

when someone introduces an untested variant to cover their failure in manufacturing to an acceptable quality, this for me is completely unacceptable.

Do you know it hasn't been tested? This print of the Grendel II is dated 2008. Is it possible this reamer has been used for a while and finally came to be public is all.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4904[/ATTACH]

I do agree with everyone's opinion that it is a variant of the Grendel but as far as not being tested is an assumption.

[JASmith]

Do you know it hasn't been tested? I saw the print that was posted and the date was 2008. Is it possible this reamer has been used for a while and finally came to be public is all.

Because none of the advocates came forward with test data when the question was posed multiple times. Too many of us seem to forget what was in even recent threads -- the result is some issues that have been put to bed continue to be shaken like a dog does with a toy.

[Tedward]

I am not trying to bring up the topic but since everyone is talking again, the design of the Grendel II has been around for a while, check out the date on my updated post. Something I found interesting...

[JASmith]

If you had read the relevant threads, you would already know that.

Why do dogs have keep chewing used bones?

[Tedward]

I was following the thread on Variants, good or bad.

People posting unsafe and untested is why I posted that in case some new readers read that comment. I think it is tested and people don't know what they have. I also think I'm allowed an opinion too.

[JASmith]

What was learned from other sources was the so-called Grendel II was tested early on and abandoned in favor of the compound throat because the compound throat works better for most bullets.

Tedward, if I recall you participated in those conversations, so your memory is short, or you are trying to evoke untoward responses from folks who are tired of this continued rehashing of settled issues.

[bwaites]

Do you know it hasn't been tested? This print of the Grendel II is dated 2008. Is it possible this reamer has been used for a while and finally came to be public is all.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4904[/ATTACH]

I do agree with everyone's opinion that it is a variant of the Grendel but as far as not being tested is an assumption.

Call it Grendel II or Satern 264 or LBC 264, that reamer has been around a lot longer than 2008. That drawing might be dated 2008, but the design has been around since the first Grendel. Arnie Brennan was essentially running a chamber like that with his original designs, even before Grendel brass was finalized. I think Arnes had a .295 neck, but other than that, very similar.

But I do find it interesting that Steve Satern, under contract at the time to AA to build Grendel barrels, was signing off on a drawing of a Grendel variant chamber, and was keeping the trademarked name of Grendel on it. There is an awful lot of strangeness there, since the Grendel wasn't yet SAAMI and was still trademarked.

[cory]

Do you know it hasn't been tested? This print of the Grendel II is dated 2008. Is it possible this reamer has been used for a while and finally came to be public is all.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4904[/ATTACH]

I do agree with everyone's opinion that it is a variant of the Grendel but as far as not being tested is an assumption.

Because there are three reasons not to divulge test results: they're proprietary, there are none, or the results were less than favorable to your position. There's no reason for proprietary data here, so take your pick.

It's possible for me to dunk a basketball, but unless someone does some serious photoshopping you'll never see it happen. A lot of things are possible, but I prefer to deal in substantiated history.

To break it down Barney style, I'm only interested in dealing in facts and data, not what you seem to remember, scratching what you conveniently forget.

You are correct on my statement being an assumption. However, in absence of test data it's the safe/conservative assumption. That's shall I say normal in engineering, take the conservative, verifiable path.

[NugginFutz]

But I do find it interesting that Steve Satern, under contract at the time to AA to build Grendel barrels, was signing off on a drawing of a Grendel variant chamber, and was keeping the trademarked name of Grendel on it. There is an awful lot of strangeness there, since the Grendel wasn't yet SAAMI and was still trademarked.

Ya think? Love to be a fly on the wall at either AA or Satern, when that is discussed.

In the final analysis, though, I agree with others, when they suggest that if you decide to release a "PC compatible" Grendel chamber, have the nerve to hang your own name on it, instead of riding the coattails of a successful brand, SAAMI, or not. The specious argument that this is "kosher" since there are multiple .308 variants falls apart, when you realize that there is only .308 Winchester, not .308 Winchester II, or a .308 Lapua Palma, but not a .308 Lapua Palma II. When someone sees .243 Ackley Improved, they are not at all confused that it might be .243 Win.

[NugginFutz]

What was learned from other sources was the so-called Grendel II was tested early on and abandoned in favor of the compound throat because the compound throat works better for most bullets.

Tedward, if I recall you participated in those conversations, so your memory is short, or you are trying to evoke untoward responses from folks who are tired of this continued rehashing of settled issues.

I tend to believe the latter, jasmith, as tedward recently commented on another board that the liberty "dust up" is unlikely to die down, soon. It seems that he is working to ensure that it remains so. Disagree? Then he can prove me wrong, and let it go.

[jmhallrn]

Fair enough, but the problem arose when they were NOT. Right? Dave Kiff was recently bragging that many barrels marked 6.5 Grendel are not SAAMI 6.5 Grendel. Then, when they don't work, who gets the blame? All the vendors involved run for the hills and point fingers at each other and finally at the 6.5 Grendel itself as conceived by Alexander Arms.

We've had a few guys recently say they're disillusioned about the 6.5 Grendel because of the Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt that's been sown. That doesn't help the rest of us who are looking forward to more participation, by users and vendors alike, in the 6.5 Grendel program.

As you say, I'd like the various variant entities to take responsibility for their creations. Everybody knows what the .223 Wylde is; it is a solid solution to a valid problem and you know what you're getting when you order one. If you want a 6.5 Grendel variant, call it the 6.5 Satern or the 6.5 Kiff, and own it. I'll give Les Baer credit for calling his the .264LBC, even if he did it for reasons beyond mere truth in labeling.

If one's variant chamber succeeds, one wants all the credit. And the money. If one's variant chamber flops, one points a finger at Alexander Arms. It's like Obama still blaming Bush for the past six years. . . .

John

It would seem that the problem then lies not with variant chambers, but with the advertising and business practices of the various companies offering them. I'll not comment on the merits of their respective names.

Also, in my opinion, a wildcat would necessitate some change to the cartridge (i.e. necking up/down, moving or blowing out the shoulder, etc.). And there are, in fact, numbered chamber designs (6.8 spc and 6.8 spc II.)

[JDub]

"The best thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."

[keystone183]

I tend to believe the latter, jasmith, as tedward recently commented on another board that the liberty "dust up" is unlikely to die down, soon. It seems that he is working to ensure that it remains so. Disagree? Then he can prove me wrong, and let it go.

While obviously it could be pure coincidence, it is strange he showed up about the exact time as another, recently banned, member. It isn't coincidence. Their agendas are the same. He is the 'good cop' to the no longer present 'bad cop'.

Don't believe me? Read back through the now closed thread and ponder how it is someone seemingly intelligent could make such foolish assumptions so many times in a row. Or have a non-existent short term memory. Someone who 'just wants the facts' would certainly make himself aware of them when they are presented. And in searching for clarity, one doesn't often purposefully attempt to muddy the water.

The entertainment value is high though...

[pinzgauer]

My concern has been this idea lately that the Grendel cartridge isn't quite hot enough so lets make longer throats so we can have longer bullets so we can have more powder capacity, ad naseum... MY OPINION MY OPINION MY OPINION is that this comes from a misunderstanding of what makes the Grendel so great: BCs The Grendel has delivered everything that drew me to it... maintained velocity over an extended range with fantastic wind fighting capability. For me this means I can take the 300 yard shot and know what my bullet is going to do when it hits a given animal. Muzzle velocity isn't the only number to look at when forming opinions on ballistics.

That seems to have been the rallying call of late in certain circles who had a vested interest (financial?) in defending the Liberty barrels. Some of which had short throats and had to be "fixed". So now it's turned into finding every example in the last 10 years where someone had a stuck cartridge and using it as an example of design deficiency. And now it's shifting to bolt design as well. Same actors, and same (presumably) motive.

Lost in the posturing is some well intentioned desire to shoot heavier bullets for hunting. Bullets which normally have to be seated too deeply. So they are willing to go mag length or longer (6.8 mags, etc) and need deeper throats.

Personally, that is not of interest to me. Nor am I convinced the benefit will be as large as they think. 120/123 is the heaviest I will go in Grendel, and based on performance of the factory & reload 123g SST the cartridge is doing everything I want it to.

And keeping decent accuracy with current and future factory ammo is important to me. Which for me is where the Grendel shines.

I chuckle at some of the "I modified my throat, and it's shooting great, getting .75 or 1 MOA at 100 yards" comments. I've never seen a factory Grendel do worse than that. And one of mine was 1/2 moa with cheap glass and service trigger.

[BjornF16]

But I do find it interesting that Steve Satern, under contract at the time to AA to build Grendel barrels, was signing off on a drawing of a Grendel variant chamber, and was keeping the trademarked name of Grendel on it. There is an awful lot of strangeness there, since the Grendel wasn't yet SAAMI and was still trademarked.

Wouldn't there also be culpability for PTG for infringing upon a trademarked name (at that time)?

(Not to mention the entire ethics issues it raises...)

[JASmith]

...Lost in the posturing is some well intentioned desire to shoot heavier bullets for hunting. Bullets which normally have to be seated too deeply. So they are willing to go mag length or longer (6.8 mags, etc) and need deeper throats.

Personally, that is not of interest to me. Nor am I convinced the benefit will be as large as they think. 120/123 is the heaviest I will go in Grendel, and based on performance of the factory & reload 123g SST the cartridge is doing everything I want it to...

Those who already have or will soon get Volume 2 of the 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbook can see on page 33 that 120 grains is enough for all deer. Turning the page over to page 35 and we see where some pressure to go heavier might occur. Even there, the 100 gr TTSX and 125 gr Partition are good for Elk.

One can also get a better feel for how heavy a bullet one needs for the Grendel and other cartridges by going here: Ideal Bullet Weight.

So, yes, I can see where one who wants to shoot some heavy bullets might be tempted to go with a full-diameter freebore.

Nonetheless, the existing SAAMI spec for the Grendel has long been shown to do very well. The folks who want to do something different have to step over a tall threshold to do better across the board. I look forward to seeing if someone can do that using the baseline 220 Russian case because I am reasonably sure that merely tweaking freebore and throat details is not enough.

[LRRPF52]

Variable already loads the 160gr Hornady Round Nose to magazine length in his Grendel for subsonic loads, in a SAAMI Grendel chamber.

We're basically seeing a collection of novices who are being influenced by industry figures with chips on their shoulders against AA who want to make one of the most successful products their skirmish line in order to attack and lash out. Basically adults who are much older than me behaving like children in a sandbox.

The customer should not be exposed to middle-aged and aging men throwing tantrums. It's pretty sad when you think about it. I however choose to be happy, especially when I'm out ringing steel at stupid ranges with a little carbine, or seeing the twofer posts that have a habit of showing up here in the hunting section.

[NugginFutz]

While obviously it could be pure coincidence, it is strange he showed up about the exact time as another, recently banned, member. It isn't coincidence. Their agendas are the same. He is the 'good cop' to the no longer present 'bad cop'.

Don't believe me? Read back through the now closed thread and ponder how it is someone seemingly intelligent could make such foolish assumptions so many times in a row. Or have a non-existent short term memory. Someone who 'just wants the facts' would certainly make himself aware of them when they are presented. And in searching for clarity, one doesn't often purposefully attempt to muddy the water.

The entertainment value is high though...

I have often wondered how someone with an FFL could come in, throw a verbal grenade in the room, claiming ignorance of the facts, while in the same breath defend it by saying they are only reporting what they'd heard. Classic plausible deniability. "I'm only saying what someone told me." has been used way too often, here.

As far as entertainment value goes, if I wanted to watch Jerry Springer, I'd turn on the TV. It's more difficult to change channels here, though. Makes me wish there was TIVO for Forums.

[JASmith]

...Makes me wish there was TIVO for Forums.

It's called the "add to ignore list" under that member's profile. It results in one not seeing that member's posts until you reverse the setting. My own experience (I've used it just once since I've been on the forum) is that it helps insulate one from stupid and petty comments and sheer bone-headed assertions repeated way too often.

Watching other readers' responses to those same less-than-useful comments still gives one a handle on where things are going. That means that one can still make a comment when needed but my pleasant surprise that the need arose only very infrequently. Others carried the water very well!

[nincomp]

I seem to remember that there was a section for grendel variants on this site.* Somewhere I saw a 30 cal one (from 320pf maybe) and a one for 35 caliber. Am I thinking of the wrong site?


* ..but then again I also remember being handsome when I was younger. My wife disagrees.