Alternative to 6.5 Grendel?

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

Gentlemen,

This friendly discussion on Discarding Sabot ammunition prompted me to seek out some old files and revisit a favorite chapter of my life. The following is a page from that chapter. Thanks for the fond memories.

[Tony Williams]

Thanks for posting that - much better accuracy than I would have expected!

[JASmith]

Thanks S&S!

Even allowing for the inevitable drop in accuracy between commercial and "lowest bidder" military ammunition, it would seem the stuff might be good to 3 MOA in the infantry carbine. Hence the tungsten sliver might work for CQB when the adversary wears armor.

Of course, other issues need to be explored, including lethality on unarmored targets, expense and long range performance plus others not immediately remembered.

[nincomp]

The E. Arthur Brown Company (eabco.com) sells sabots for .224 bullets in 30 cal cartridges. They also have loading info.
http://eabco.com/Reports/report04.html

eta: About 10 years ago, I contacted the company that makes the sabots and asked if he made 7mm->.224 or 6.5mm->.224 sabots. At that time he said that he didn't have any demand for them, so he never tried.

[JASmith]

The E. Arthur Brown Company (eabco.com) sells sabots for .224 bullets in 30 cal cartridges. They also have loading info.
http://eabco.com/Reports/report04.html

So, we can start with the M-1 Carbine, and then work our way up in case size until an interesting velocity is reached. Off the top of my head, the Whisper may be very interesting if one can't get enough from the straight-wall carbine case.

[stanc]

So, we can start with the M-1 Carbine, and then work our way up in case size until an interesting velocity is reached.

For this purpose, I would define "interesting" as the velocity needed to punch through hard body armor at practical engagement distances. Might it be more efficient to determine that first, before spending a bunch of time and $$$ evaluating different cartridges?

Are there any suitable COTS bullets available? I used to have a half dozen of the 7.62 SLAP sabots and tungsten projectiles, but a helluva lot more would be needed to do load development and testing.

[JASmith]

Doesn't take a lot of effort and no $$ to get an idea of what velocities might be possible. For example, a 10 minute search of Ammoguide.com and a little work with the embedded velocity estimator suggests that the 7.62x45 Wilson Tactical (http://ammoguide.com/?catid=867) might be a good starting point.

Scaling from their max load for a 110 gr bullet in a 16" barrel to a 52 grain Rem Accelerator gives these estimates:

• 10.0" Bbl 3290 fps
  
• 14.5" Bbl 3500 fps
  
• 16.0" Bbl 3550 fps
  
• 20.0" Bbl 3650 fps
  

These velocities, coupled with the strength and density of Tungsten, should take the impact outside of the current protection specs of even very good body armor.

Yes indeed, testing will be needed, but we can see that a tactically interesting package might give a very growth potential as our adversaries improve their protection levels.

And, lest we forget that we are on the 6.5 Grendel forum, we know that it will do as well or better!

[Variable]

Thanks Tony and everyone!

SnS: Very cool blast from the past! Thanks for sharing that!


Everyone: So who's going to make us some 6.5 sabots??? :-) I've been so ridiculously bored I haven't cared to load anything for a good while, but I would certainly be game to try some sabots through 10.5", 14.5", and 19.5" tubes...

[Variable]

The E. Arthur Brown Company (eabco.com) sells sabots for .224 bullets in 30 cal cartridges. They also have loading info.
http://eabco.com/Reports/report04.html

eta: About 10 years ago, I contacted the company that makes the sabots and asked if he made 7mm->.224 or 6.5mm->.224 sabots. At that time he said that he didn't have any demand for them, so he never tried.

Maybe if we committed to a group order of a certain quantity (to cover their mold cost I'm sure), they might be willing to make them?

[stanc]

Everyone: So who's going to make us some 6.5 sabots??? :-) I've been so ridiculously bored I haven't cared to load anything for a good while, but I would certainly be game to try some sabots through 10.5", 14.5", and 19.5" tubes...

Ha! You don't know what real boredom is. I haven't been able to go shooting for [SIZE="5"]14[/SIZE] frakkin' years!


I really miss the smell of gunsmoke...

[Variable]

Ha! You don't know what real boredom is. I haven't been able to go shooting for [SIZE="5"]14[/SIZE] frakkin' years!


I really miss the smell of gunsmoke...

Well, I can't come out to Commiefornia, but..... You get yourself shipped out here for a visit, and then I'll put my shrike up on a pintle over your head and you can have a brass shower. Normally ammo is too high to make an offer like that, but for you Stan, I'll offer to make you a human brass catcher!!!

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

During the course of opening up old files in search of my experience with the intriguing Discarding Sabot option, in the 1970's - 1980's, I came across a large manila envelope enclosing some forty pages of hand-written notes carefully detailing the exact formula of each style used, along with the shooting results during my adventure with lathe-turned sabots. Rarely noted was a "Successful sabot design." The cartridge I chose was the .375-.358 Winchester wildcat. Not yet hooked on the 6.5mm bore, I elected to experiment with 0.224" and 0.243" diameter projectiles.

Decades before Bill Alexander issue his honest edict, "We shoehorned a bigger cartridge into the gun. . . . ,and you are right at the tipping point," I had the good sense to recognize the risks inherent with such a journey into the unknown. Accordingly, the "test bed" consisting of an AR-15 Bolt-Barrel Extension threaded to a 25-inch long barrel with a rifled .0.375" bore, clamped to a horizontal ladder, was fired, remotely, in the secure basement of the home. Given the cartridge chosen, the AR-15 Bolt face was opened up to 0.473" (That veteran of the "sabot wars" is shown standing on its neck, in the center of the image, below, unabashed and unscathed after hundreds of test firings).

More recently, I considered exploring Cal. 50 BMG Discarding Sabot ammunition. However, that project hasn't materialized, as yet.

[Tony Williams]

Very good, and impressively systematic!

It reminds me of some idle doodlings of my youth (around 1970) concerning a universal hunting rifle, chambered in something like .458 Win Mag or Lott, but with a variety of saboted loadings in different calibres and bullet weights to suit the game being hunted...

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

Tony,

Continuing along the vein, "some idle doodlings of my youth (around 1970)," I would offer the following links:

1, http://i62.tinypic.com/sni2dl.jpg My concept of The Rifle of the Future, as envisioned in 1974 (Close-up of the major portion of the concept rifle, only, forward section of the barrel not shown);

2, http://i61.tinypic.com/b626wo.jpg Forward section of the barrel shown, with cutouts depicting German gun-designer Hermann Gerlich's exotic taperd-bore principle*, accompanying projectile with collapsible flanges.

*Any clarification/update you'd care to input is appreciated.

[JASmith]

1974 ??? You have been busy!

I spent that year in Northern Thailand in the Air Force. Was a tad busy with those chores...

[stanc]

Well, I can't come out to Commiefornia, but..... You get yourself shipped out here for a visit, and then I'll put my shrike up on a pintle over your head and you can have a brass shower. Normally ammo is too high to make an offer like that, but for you Stan, I'll offer to make you a human brass catcher!!!

Ooooh. Aroma therapy and a brass shower. Sounds great!

I may take you up on that offer after the steel-cased Grendel ammo gets here. Providing both of us live that long, of course.

[Tony Williams]

I may take you up on that offer after the steel-cased Grendel ammo gets here.

Would that hurt less than brass? :confused:

[bwaites]

Would that hurt less than brass? :confused:

No, but it would be cheaper!

[stanc]

Would that hurt less than brass? :confused:

Of course not. But if I'm going to travel all that way to shoot Variable's 5.56 Shrike, I figure I might as well make the trip really worthwhile, and see about doing some major blasting with one of his 6.5 Grendel carbines.

[SHORT-N-SASSY]

Of course not. But if I'm going to travel all that way to shoot Variable's 5.56 Shrike, I figure I might as well make the trip really worthwhile, and see about doing some major blasting with one of his 6.5 Grendel carbines.

Prompted in large part by your tentative travel plans, I moments ago called WOLF Performance Ammo. To update: They expect to be in receipt of 6.5 Grendel Steel Case ammo, next month/2nd quarter, 2014; Distributors (MidwayUSA.com, etc.) will have it in stock, 3rd quarter, 2014. Re the question, Berdan or Boxer primers? Boxer primed!