AR-Stoner 6.5 Grendel barrel short chambered.

[keystone183]

Uh oh. Now he has no excuse.

[PigOPs]

Defending Satern is not XCR's job. Steve Satern needs to reply addressing the concerns
Of the people that have issues with the barrels. If the concerns are groundless then he needs to state why a what his investigation discovered. He also needs to stand by his product if something is wrong with the barrels. This is now Thursday and no reply from Satern. XCR's is not responsible for the quality of the product purchased. Satern is responsible for the quality control. Of the barrels. Satern would have to warranty the barrels.

I totally agree with this. I would also probably do exactly what XCR is doing had I organized the buy. He is NOT responsible for anything except for giving people a great chance to buy a barrel inexpensively and get it quicker than most all other places. Well that and single-handedly trying to defend a company that I'm certain can defend themselves.

Tedward-not if money has already been sent to Satern for the barrels purchased in a "group buy". I'm not slinging mud... just giving perspective. Let's say I organized a group buy. It went so smoothly that I immediately organized another. After gathering interest I put in an order for x number of barrels. After receiving much of the money (but not all needed) I put up the rest and make the order. Then say the barrel being purchased is being described as defective by people on the forum that you did much of the group buy through (some of whom's came through the first group buy). Now you run the risk of people asking for their money back plus not selling the barrels that you put your own coin up for. Of course, I would be defensive. I don't think there is profit in the group buy for XCR, but I can see how he could lose his own hard earned money.

Am I wrong XCR?

[cory]

I don't work for satern but i hate to see a good company dragged through the mud with a bunch of BS either. What are all he issues again? You can load an SST to 2.265 or even 2.27 way past the hornady 2.245 recommendation. You can load from 85gr to 140gr Noslers BT. I have done it and it works great. If you really sift through the thread you don't have anyone having any real issues other than panic that they think they might have an issue. Other than the first poster. Don't get confused by the side topis of other barrels that are splashed in and aren't obviously identified as not satern barrels. Some posts are cleverly written by someone that is obviously stiring crap to give the impression that the barrels are over pressured etc. It was long ago the same set of characters where spreading the rumor that they were made in the PI in sweatshops.

You think Satern is being dragged through the mud here. It's quite the contrary. If you want to see a company dragged through the mud go to snipershide. There's a few threads there that do a good job. I've read this entire thread and not one person has swore off buying a Satern or Liberty barrel. Like Mark said in Manufacturing mistakes happen, otherwise companies wouldn't issue warranties.

A mistake doesn't define a company, how they respond to it does. We've been very patiently waiting for Satern to respond to these barrels. However, we're not going to sit back and not suggest to stop shooting barrels that show a potential to be unsafe. Nobody has suggested trashing these barrels.

Mark talking crap about a competitor on a forum is low class.

Seriously?!?!?!?! Mark was nothing but respectful.


I think a big problem here is that it's not clear how many barrels have problems and how short those throats are.

This thread has become far to convoluted.

I really have no skin in the game here, so I'll do it. A new thread needs to be started where a count is keep in the original post.

If you have a barrel that you have reason to believe you have a short chamber, please pm me with your barrel info, factory ammo that's jamming into the lands, and any max oal/col - bullet you were able to measure in your chamber. If you've fixed it please include what you did and before and after measurements if possible.

[XcountryRider]

If anyone backs out XCR will not be holding any bag. Satern has many more sod than he is buying.

Right if people back out i send them there money we don't pay until the barrels are ready. I've only talked to Steve twice and that's when i called him last year to ask about why my barrel had such good velocities and then again when the first guy had the issue to let him no something maybe wrong.

[XcountryRider]

You think Satern is being dragged through the mud here. It's quite the contrary. If you want to see a company dragged through the mud go to snipershide. There's a few threads there that do a good job. I've read this entire thread and not one person has swore off buying a Satern or Liberty barrel. Like Mark said in Manufacturing mistakes happen, otherwise companies wouldn't issue warranties.

A mistake doesn't define a company, how they respond to it does. We've been very patiently waiting for Satern to respond to these barrels. However, we're not going to sit back and not suggest to stop shooting barrels that show a potential to be unsafe. Nobody has suggested trashing these barrels.



Seriously?!?!?!?! Mark was nothing but respectful.


I think a big problem here is that it's not clear how many barrels have problems and how short those throats are.

This thread has become far to convoluted.

I really have no skin in the game here, so I'll do it. A new thread needs to be started where a count is keep in the original post.

If you have a barrel that you have reason to believe you have a short chamber, please pm me with your barrel info, factory ammo that's jamming into the lands, and any max oal/col - bullet you were able to measure in your chamber. If you've fixed it please include what you did and before and after measurements if possible.

Look jumping on a thread about a competitors project saying he'll never use is because it has a short throat is not appropriate.

[XcountryRider]

I totally agree with this. I would also probably do exactly what XCR is doing had I organized the buy. He is NOT responsible for anything except for giving people a great chance to buy a barrel inexpensively and get it quicker than most all other places. Well that and single-handedly trying to defend a company that I'm certain can defend themselves.

Tedward-not if money has already been sent to Satern for the barrels purchased in a "group buy". I'm not slinging mud... just giving perspective. Let's say I organized a group buy. It went so smoothly that I immediately organized another. After gathering interest I put in an order for x number of barrels. After receiving much of the money (but not all needed) I put up the rest and make the order. Then say the barrel being purchased is being described as defective by people on the forum that you did much of the group buy through (some of whom's came through the first group buy). Now you run the risk of people asking for their money back plus not selling the barrels that you put your own coin up for. Of course, I would be defensive. I don't think there is profit in the group buy for XCR, but I can see how he could lose his own hard earned money.

Am I wrong XCR?

Your wrong because i don't send them the money until the day they ship. I'm not worried about getting stuck with any barrels thats not how it works.

[biggdawg]

no dog in this fight but if factory ammo doesn't drop in a chamber saturn needs to fix it period. i have read the whole thread and there is more than enuff evidence that the throats are short or tight and saturn needs to step up and fix the problem.

if this was a wildcat it would be a different story but it isn't and you shouldn't have to fire lap a new barrel just so it can chamber spec ammo,

as far as xcr you are attacking someone for no reason, Mark was just trying to help and give his opinion he wasn't bad mouthing anyone. just stating what they should do. if you are so but hurt and worried about your group buy then if i was you I would be on saturns back till they got the problem resolved. not defending them at every turn for something that obviously isn't right.

a chamber can't be in spec if factory rounds don't fit and there have been several comparisons to the ne lija barrels and they aren't the same so one chamber is out of spec that woudl be the one that won't chamber a factory round.

sorry if feelings are hurt just the way i see it.

sure glad i didn't jump on the group buy is all i can say. i won't buy a saturn now until i see they have remedied the situation.

[Tedward]

I totally agree with this. I would also probably do exactly what XCR is doing had I organized the buy. He is NOT responsible for anything except for giving people a great chance to buy a barrel inexpensively and get it quicker than most all other places. Well that and single-handedly trying to defend a company that I'm certain can defend themselves.

Tedward-not if money has already been sent to Satern for the barrels purchased in a "group buy". I'm not slinging mud... just giving perspective. Let's say I organized a group buy. It went so smoothly that I immediately organized another. After gathering interest I put in an order for x number of barrels. After receiving much of the money (but not all needed) I put up the rest and make the order. Then say the barrel being purchased is being described as defective by people on the forum that you did much of the group buy through (some of whom's came through the first group buy). Now you run the risk of people asking for their money back plus not selling the barrels that you put your own coin up for. Of course, I would be defensive. I don't think there is profit in the group buy for XCR, but I can see how he could lose his own hard earned money.

Am I wrong XCR?

You don't pay Satern till they are ready to ship. I know first hand.

sorry just got caught up and XCR answered

[PigOPs]

Your wrong because i don't send them the money until the day they ship. I'm not worried about getting stuck with any barrels thats not how it works.

Then my sincerest apologies...

[Tedward]

I think a big problem here is that it's not clear how many barrels have problems and how short those throats are.

This thread has become far to convoluted.

I really have no skin in the game here, so I'll do it. A new thread needs to be started where a count is keep in the original post.

If you have a barrel that you have reason to believe you have a short chamber, please pm me with your barrel info, factory ammo that's jamming into the lands, and any max oal/col - bullet you were able to measure in your chamber. If you've fixed it please include what you did and before and after measurements if possible.

As you state and this is the issue here "You Think". Satern does not need you to take notes, the people have been told to call Satern or send the barrel back. Don't call the Chevy Dealer if your Ford is having trouble. CALL FORD...

Everyone stop speculating why XCR or myself are commenting. The reason I'M commenting is that I have Liberty barrels and have been shooting them with no issue. If anyone has an issue before mounting the barrel or shooting it, contact the manufacture. If you have an issue after shooting it and seeing any problems or concerns, call the manufacture. I just got off the phone with the manufacture so they do answer the phone. Call them, NOT Mark. Don't put other manufactures in the middle of this because it puts a bad taste in everyones mouth and you get this crap.

[XcountryRider]

no dog in this fight but if factory ammo doesn't drop in a chamber saturn needs to fix it period. i have read the whole thread and there is more than enuff evidence that the throats are short or tight and saturn needs to step up and fix the problem.

if this was a wildcat it would be a different story but it isn't and you shouldn't have to fire lap a new barrel just so it can chamber spec ammo,

as far as xcr you are attacking someone for no reason, Mark was just trying to help and give his opinion he wasn't bad mouthing anyone. just stating what they should do. if you are so but hurt and worried about your group buy then if i was you I would be on saturns back till they got the problem resolved. not defending them at every turn for something that obviously isn't right.

a chamber can't be in spec if factory rounds don't fit and there have been several comparisons to the ne lija barrels and they aren't the same so one chamber is out of spec that woudl be the one that won't chamber a factory round.

sorry if feelings are hurt just the way i see it.

sure glad i didn't jump on the group buy is all i can say. i won't buy a saturn now until i see they have remedied the situation.

Your right IF factory ammo does not chamber you have an issue. Theres a lot of IF's being used. Only one guy had factory ammo not chamber and that was the OP.

[XcountryRider]

As you state and this is the issue here "You Think". Satern does not need you to take notes, the people have been told to call Satern or send the barrel back. Don't call the Chevy Dealer if your Ford is having trouble. CALL FORD...

Everyone stop speculating why XCR or myself are commenting. The reason I'M commenting is that I have Liberty barrels and have been shooting them with no issue. If anyone has an issue before mounting the barrel or shooting it, contact the manufacture. If you have an issue after shooting it and seeing any problems or concerns, call the manufacture. I just got off the phone with the manufacture so they do answer the phone. Call them, NOT Mark. Don't put other manufactures in the middle of this because it puts a bad taste in everyones mouth and you get this crap.

Well said!!

[FlatsFlite]

Your right IF factory ammo does not chamber you have an issue. Theres a lot of IF's being used. Only one guy had factory ammo not chamber and that was the OP.

XCR, you need to go back and do a recount.

[keystone183]

it puts a bad taste in everyones mouth and you get this crap.

You get "this crap" when:
1. Someone ignores information presented.
2. Someone twists information presented.
3. Someone continually makes antagonistic insinuations and assertions.

I have paid pretty close attention to this thread and see only one person who is continually doing these things. I guess they like to "stir the shit", as was one of their accusations.

I read this thread intently for 47 pages, but as it's degenerating into arfcom, i just can't help it anymore.

[cory]

Look jumping on a thread about a competitors project saying he'll never use is because it has a short throat is not appropriate.

I did not blame Saturn for anything. I have not personally seen these barrels. We have used some Liberty barrels in the past (we will not use them again for reasons other than short throat). When I get asked about or questioned on specs on our barrels, we answer them to the best of our ability, (or try to in layman's terms) explain to the customer, the why and what for. With the amount of emails and phone call I got over this, I would begin to think I made or was responsible for these Liberty barrels.

Again I repeat, I don't care a lot about LIBERTY barrels or want to "take them down". We provide different products to different markets.

........

"He that passeth by, and meddleth with strife belonging not to him, is like one that taketh a dog by the ears." Proverbs 26:17

Mark Hostetter
Precision Firearms

What he said and what you heard are two different things. I believe you owe Mark an apology.

Again mistakes don't define us, how we respond to them does.

[cory]

As you state and this is the issue here "You Think". Satern does not need you to take notes, the people have been told to call Satern or send the barrel back. Don't call the Chevy Dealer if your Ford is having trouble. CALL FORD...

Everyone stop speculating why XCR or myself are commenting. The reason I'M commenting is that I have Liberty barrels and have been shooting them with no issue. If anyone has an issue before mounting the barrel or shooting it, contact the manufacture. If you have an issue after shooting it and seeing any problems or concerns, call the manufacture. I just got off the phone with the manufacture so they do answer the phone. Call them, NOT Mark. Don't put other manufactures in the middle of this because it puts a bad taste in everyones mouth and you get this crap.

Agreed!

There's a problem here, though. Following this entire thread I can't tell if this is a wide spread problem with this run of barrels or if it's just a few. Someone casually following this thread likely has no clue what the facts are.

Presenting the facts as they sit is in ours and Satern's best interests. If Satern does the right thing, thoroughly investigates these barrels and fixes the ones that require it then it'll be a testament to a quality company otherwise it'll be a buyer beware.

Either way it'll be based of facts and not speculation.

[Tedward]

no dog in this fight but if factory ammo doesn't drop in a chamber saturn needs to fix it period. i have read the whole thread and there is more than enuff evidence that the throats are short or tight and saturn needs to step up and fix the problem.

if this was a wildcat it would be a different story but it isn't and you shouldn't have to fire lap a new barrel just so it can chamber spec ammo,

as far as xcr you are attacking someone for no reason, Mark was just trying to help and give his opinion he wasn't bad mouthing anyone. just stating what they should do. if you are so but hurt and worried about your group buy then if i was you I would be on saturns back till they got the problem resolved. not defending them at every turn for something that obviously isn't right.

a chamber can't be in spec if factory rounds don't fit and there have been several comparisons to the ne lija barrels and they aren't the same so one chamber is out of spec that woudl be the one that won't chamber a factory round.

sorry if feelings are hurt just the way i see it.

sure glad i didn't jump on the group buy is all i can say. i won't buy a saturn now until i see they have remedied the situation.

Ok, your question is a good one. Take the 6.8 SPC, it had issues cambering heavy bullets. Did they make a 6.8 II with a longer wider? I think the answer is yes and now the issue is resolved but the 6.8 II is not SAAMI but it does what people want and not what it was designed for. I talked to Steve and he is thinking of doing the same for the Grendel and making a non SAAMI Grendel II. Also the Grendel as they are, but a Heavy bullet throat.

My fear with this is if the barrel heats up, the metal expands, and the accuracy broadens on hot barrels. Maybe it will be just a tinnnny bit but as Satern is the expert, I'll leave that up to them to determine. It seems as if there are pros and cons but somebody will not be happy.

[Sputnik]

The reason I'M commenting is that I have Liberty barrels and have been shooting them with no issue.

I am so very happy you have had success over the years with Liberty barrels. Please consider those of us building our first 6.5 Grendel build and wanted a good quality barrel to mount. Then see our concern and dismay caused by this thread. My concern began with the OP listing his issues and I realized that Midway AR Stoner barrels are the same as Liberty barrels. My measured 2.238 123 SST dummy round had no visible marks. My concern increased when I posted #184 and my 2.245 measured 123 Amax and SST hand chambered but were difficult to extract and showed 5 equally spaced small land marks around the circumference of the projectile forward of the end of the casing. My dismay is growing, because Satern needs to "get off the pot" and respond better than we have seen so far. I won't build until this is resolved. My wife won't allow my Son or my Grandson to shoot it until it is fixed, and I don't want to break bolts because of excess pressure that may produce a faster muzzle velocity. So it sits here on the table, while I wait.

[bwaites]

I spent nearly an hour on the phone with Deb and Steve Satern this AM.

Here is my understanding:

1) The chambers were cut to the SAAMI specification to the best of Steve's knowledge and ability. He has conferred with his reamer manufacturer and Hornady regarding the issues, and still feels that the chambers are dimensionally correct.

2) If you have an issue with one of the barrels, contact Satern and discuss your options.

3) Satern will be posting a message on their web page in the next day or two, please refer to it. I will post a link when it is available.

From my perspective, I would like to see someone send at least one of the supposedly defective barrels to LRRPF52 so that he could compare them to the many barrels he has had pass through his hands. He has multiple Lilja barrels at this point, and comparing a few of the offending barrels and posting pics of the issues would be very helpful. LRRPF52 has no dog in the fight, and can remain patently objective. (I'm voluteering him for this and he can decline if he wishes, but I don't know of anyone except possible Bob Stokes who has remotely as much experience with AR's and the Grendel and the aptitude to do this.) I would like to see how multiple different factory loads, unfired Lapua brass, and unfired Hornady brass drops into the chamber. I can supply some different AA and Hornady loads if necessary, as well as a few pieces of unfired Lapua brass.

At this point, (well actually quite a while ago!) this thread no longer serves any purpose, and has degenerated into a bunch of "he said" issues.

I would request that one of the people who has one of the barrels in question begin a separate thread, and limit it to people with similar issues. List what factory ammo fits, what doesn't, what hand loads fit and don't fit. Also please discuss if you have spoken directly with Steve or Deb Satern and any information they gave you to the best of your ability. No one on this forum can fix the issue, but maybe we can quantify it somewhat.

[Sputnik]

I can ship mine tomorrow. Liberty 16 inch, tell me where.