LRRPF52's masterpiece!

[cory]

Any dealer who holds a class 1 FFL license is in business as a retailer. He can sell firearms, parts, stripped lowers etc but should he assemble a lower and sell that lower or work on any gun as a gun smith then he is deemed to be a manufacturer and needs a class 7 FFL

According to that you can't sell an AR15 you put together yourself unless you have a class 7 FFL?????

[NugginFutz]

To paint or tape a registered firearm, no 07 FFL is needed, since a ruling in 2009 by the ATF addressed this point. It does, however, establish the requirement for an 01 FFL for anyone doing painting, etc, as a business.

BATF ruling regarding painting, engraving, etc.

Scanned version (emphasis is mine):

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington. DC 20226

18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(I)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED


Any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes
a firearm's appearance, by camouflaging a firearm by painting, dipping, or applying tape,
or by engraving the external surface of a firearm, does not need to be licensed as a
manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person who is licensed as a
dealer/gunsmith, and who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling
does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person
who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this
ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control
Act.

ATF Rule 2009-1

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries
from Federally licensed manufacturers and dealers/gunsmiths seeking clarification as to
whether camouflaging firearms, or cutting designs into firearms by engraving, constitute
manufacturing activities that require a manufacturer's license.

Camouflaging refers to a patterned treatment using a variety of different colors that enables
a firearm to blend into a particular outdoor environment. This typically involves painting,
dipping, or applying a tape over the firearm's wood and/or metal parts.
Engraving firearms is a process in which a decorative pattern is placed on the external
metal of a firearm primarily for ornamental purposes. The engraving can be cut by hand or
machine, or pressed into the metal. There are other engraving techniques that cut designs
into firearms, such as checkering or scalloping.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (V.S.C.), Chapter 44,
provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing,
or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so
from the Attorney General. A "firearm" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 92 I (a)(3) to include any
weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted

-2-

to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such
weapon. The term "manufacturer" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(IO) and 27 CFR 478.11
as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for
purposes of sale or distribution. The term "dealer," which includes a gunsmith, is defined
by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(II) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include any person engaged in the business
of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, or repairing firearms or making or fitting special
barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms.

In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF's predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms
"manufacturer" and "dealer" for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal
Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer
could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not
engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for
purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer's license. Since then, ATF has
similarly and consistently interpreted the term "manufacturer" under the GCA to mean any
person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or
otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.

Performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging, that primarily adds to or
changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Unlike
manufacturing processes that primarily enhance a firearm's durability, camouflaging is
primarily cosmetic. Likewise, external engravings are cosmetic in nature and primarily
affect only the appearance of a firearm.

[COLOR="blue"]Held, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or
changes a firearm's appearance by camouflaging the firearm by painting, dipping, or
applying tape does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to
or changes a firearm's appearance by engraving the external surface of the firearm does not
need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and
who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be
licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or
[/COLOR]

-3

[COLOR="blue"]engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes
a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.[/COLOR]

[NugginFutz]

According to that you can't sell an AR15 you put together yourself unless you have a class 7 FFL?????

Cory - nothing says you can't purchase the components of an AR, assemble them for yourself, and later, should you decide to, sell the same rifle. The key is that you are not doing this as a business. The rifle was originally built for your own personal use and ownership.

[Ridgerider]

No you can do that but if you start making money at it and do it on a regular basis you are them deemed to be manufacturing whether your name of any other name and serial number is on the lower and then yes you need a class 7 FFL or you are breaking the law. Class 1 FFL is retail only class 7 FFL is manufacturing

[montana]

Do you get a tax refund if you loose money helping buddies put their rifles together?

[Tedward]

Do you get a tax refund if you loose money helping buddies put their rifles together?

No, you go to jail and then you don't have to pay taxes. Lots of companies pay there fee's to the ATF and state to do this work so making or altering fire arms is not like painting your buddies car.

Changing or altering the performance and even the finish of a barrel is manufacturing. Type 7 FFL is required, I have discussed this with the ATF and confirmed it numerous times. Parkerizing or even Cerakote the barrel enhances the life of the barrel so it is manufacturing. Simple and if you want to take that risk go ahead. Those that offer that service should know the law and probably carry the correct FFL but it is the responsibility of the gun owner to confirm they do have the correct licenses. In other words, request the FFL information before you send your firearms or parts to anyone for work. Saying I didn't know doesn't work with the ATF.

I was not going to mention this but once your barrel is in the possession of someone who does not have the FFL Type 7 and starts to do anything to them, everything in the persons possession COULD be confiscated as evidence. And no barrel.. Painting the stocks or hand guards is ok, but the receivers, with Serial Numbers, barrels and any modifications to enhance the performance is manufacturing.

Again, be cautious and I bet the ATF follows forums. They are watching so don't do what you know is wrong....

[Tedward]

According to that you can't sell an AR15 you put together yourself unless you have a class 7 FFL?????

You can as long as your state allows it and your not doing it for a profit. If you built your rifle from a stripped lower, bought a barrel from Midway, then sold it because you got a Lilja barrel and want to upgrade, that's fine in some states. Post the offering to do it for a fee is manufacturing.

[Tedward]

Also, do you think companies like this would post there licenses if they were not required? This costs them money and they aren't doing it because they want to, they are following the laws..

http://www.extremefirepower.com/

[montana]

No, you go to jail and then you don't have to pay taxes. Lots of companies pay there fee's to the ATF and state to do this work so making or altering fire arms is not like painting your buddies car.

Changing or altering the performance and even the finish of a barrel is manufacturing. Type 7 FFL is required, I have discussed this with the ATF and confirmed it numerous times. Parkerizing or even Cerakote the barrel enhances the life of the barrel so it is manufacturing. Simple and if you want to take that risk go ahead. Those that offer that service should know the law and probably carry the correct FFL but it is the responsibility of the gun owner to confirm they do have the correct licenses. In other words, request the FFL information before you send your firearms or parts to anyone for work. Saying I didn't know doesn't work with the ATF.

I was not going to mention this but once your barrel is in the possession of someone who does not have the FFL Type 7 and starts to do anything to them, everything in the persons possession COULD be confiscated as evidence. And no barrel.. Painting the stocks or hand guards is ok, but the receivers, with Serial Numbers, barrels and any modifications to enhance the performance is manufacturing.

Again, be cautious and I bet the ATF follows forums. They are watching so don't do what you know is wrong....

So what you are saying is if a friends rifle pukes at a multi gun match and I take it to my house to repair it free of charge, bring it back to the range "that is a crime"?

[NugginFutz]

No, you go to jail and then you don't have to pay taxes. Lots of companies pay there fee's to the ATF and state to do this work so making or altering fire arms is not like painting your buddies car.

Changing or altering the performance and even the finish of a barrel is manufacturing. Type 7 FFL is required, I have discussed this with the ATF and confirmed it numerous times. Parkerizing or even Cerakote the barrel enhances the life of the barrel so it is manufacturing. Simple and if you want to take that risk go ahead. Those that offer that service should know the law and probably carry the correct FFL but it is the responsibility of the gun owner to confirm they do have the correct licenses. In other words, request the FFL information before you send your firearms or parts to anyone for work. Saying I didn't know doesn't work with the ATF.

I was not going to mention this but once your barrel is in the possession of someone who does not have the FFL Type 7 and starts to do anything to them, everything in the persons possession COULD be confiscated as evidence. And no barrel.. Painting the stocks or hand guards is ok, but the receivers, with Serial Numbers, barrels and any modifications to enhance the performance is manufacturing.

Again, be cautious and I bet the ATF follows forums. They are watching so don't do what you know is wrong....

Tedward - as indicated in the highlighted portions of ATF Rule 2009-1, posted earlier, it makes it quite clear an 07 FFL (Manufacturer) is not required for people who are painting, camouflaging firearms as a business. Only an 01 FFL is required.

From the above quote, it concludes:

[INDENT]Held, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or
changes a firearm's appearance by camouflaging the firearm by painting, dipping, or
applying tape does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to
or changes a firearm's appearance by engraving the external surface of the firearm does not
need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and
who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be
licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or
engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes
a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.[/INDENT]

If you have heard something different, it would be best to get it in writing. If you have something in writing that postdates the above official rule from the ATF, I'd appreciate your sharing that, as well.

[montana]

http://www.atf.gov/content/contact-us/FO...ng-of-FFLs

[Ridgerider]

To paint or tape a registered firearm, no 07 FFL is needed, since a ruling in 2009 by the ATF addressed this point. It does, however, establish the requirement for an 01 FFL for anyone doing painting, etc, as a business.

BATF ruling regarding painting, engraving, etc.

Scanned version (emphasis is mine):

U.S. Department of Justice
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives
Office of the Director
Washington. DC 20226

18 U.S.C. 921(a): DEFINITIONS
18 U.S.C. 922(a)(I)(A): LICENSES REQUIRED
18 U.S.C. 923(a): LICENSES REQUIRED
27 CFR 478.11: DEFINITIONS
27 CFR 478.41(a): LICENSES REQUIRED


Any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes
a firearm's appearance, by camouflaging a firearm by painting, dipping, or applying tape,
or by engraving the external surface of a firearm, does not need to be licensed as a
manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person who is licensed as a
dealer/gunsmith, and who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling
does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person
who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this
ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control
Act.

ATF Rule 2009-1

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received inquiries
from Federally licensed manufacturers and dealers/gunsmiths seeking clarification as to
whether camouflaging firearms, or cutting designs into firearms by engraving, constitute
manufacturing activities that require a manufacturer's license.

Camouflaging refers to a patterned treatment using a variety of different colors that enables
a firearm to blend into a particular outdoor environment. This typically involves painting,
dipping, or applying a tape over the firearm's wood and/or metal parts.
Engraving firearms is a process in which a decorative pattern is placed on the external
metal of a firearm primarily for ornamental purposes. The engraving can be cut by hand or
machine, or pressed into the metal. There are other engraving techniques that cut designs
into firearms, such as checkering or scalloping.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States Code (V.S.C.), Chapter 44,
provides, in part, that no person shall engage in the business of importing, manufacturing,
or dealing in firearms until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so
from the Attorney General. A "firearm" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 92 I (a)(3) to include any
weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted

-2-

to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver of any such
weapon. The term "manufacturer" is defined by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(IO) and 27 CFR 478.11
as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for
purposes of sale or distribution. The term "dealer," which includes a gunsmith, is defined
by 18 V.S.C. 921(a)(II) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include any person engaged in the business
of selling firearms at wholesale or retail, or repairing firearms or making or fitting special
barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms.

In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF's predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms
"manufacturer" and "dealer" for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal
Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer
could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not
engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for
purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer's license. Since then, ATF has
similarly and consistently interpreted the term "manufacturer" under the GCA to mean any
person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or
otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.

Performing a cosmetic process or activity, such as camouflaging, that primarily adds to or
changes the appearance or decoration of a firearm is not manufacturing. Unlike
manufacturing processes that primarily enhance a firearm's durability, camouflaging is
primarily cosmetic. Likewise, external engravings are cosmetic in nature and primarily
affect only the appearance of a firearm.

[COLOR="blue"]Held, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or
changes a firearm's appearance by camouflaging the firearm by painting, dipping, or
applying tape does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to
or changes a firearm's appearance by engraving the external surface of the firearm does not
need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, and
who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be
licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act.

Held further, any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or
[/COLOR]

-3

[COLOR="blue"]engraving firearms as described in this ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes
a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.[/COLOR]

Its this last part that being a gun smith requires you to be a 07 FFL
The word is profit if you are working on peoples guns for profit and if people are sending guns through the mail to you to work on then you need a FFL.
So the question now is who here has an FFL I know I do so who else. Lets discourage people from breaking the law as it will protect us all.

[NugginFutz]

Its this last part that being a gun smith requires you to be a 07 FFL
The word is profit if you are working on peoples guns for profit and if people are sending guns through the mail to you to work on then you need a FFL.
So the question now is who here has an FFL I know I do so who else. Lets discourage people from breaking the law as it will protect us all.

I'm not quite sure where you connected four separate rulings into one. Each stands on its own merit. Gunsmithing is not the same as painting. Are you trying to say that Cerakoting is the domain of a Gunsmith and, as such, requires an 07 FFL?

[montana]

According to the ATF web site you need a type 01 FFL, for a gun smith and a type 07 FFL for a manufacturer. If I'm wrong please correct me.

[Ridgerider]

The reason I say its a 7 is when I started my business I was refurbishing old Lee Enfield rifles and the local ATF agent informed me although it was gunsmithing I would require a class 7 FFL as I was improving the gun therefore it was manufacturing. I quoted the above ruling and was told as soon as I remove any part from the gun that was manufacturing. Just saying and I have learnt not to question the ATF as you will loose.

[Ridgerider]

According to the ATF web site you need a type 01 FFL, for a gun smith and a type 07 FFL for a manufacturer. If I'm wrong please correct me.

The point is you still need a FFL whether it be an 01 or 07 to work on any gun for profit and to receive any gun through the mail.

[LRRPF52]

The ATF has made these "rulings" without any judicial oversight. They are not part of the legislative branch, and they have their own court system. If they want to steal your assets, charge you, etc., it doesn't matter what any of the merits of the case are, as they are an unchecked continuing criminal enterprise.

They also strong-arm FFL dealers into being Confidential Informants for them, in exchange for being "allowed" to continue their business and not be arrested on trumped up charges. Dealing with the ATF is a double-edged sword that can turn on you with the simple change of a SAIC or lower manager in your Federal Region, and none of the Federal Regions are on the same sheet of music. They regularly ignore Firearms Technology Branch in D.C., and most SAIC's are totally ignorant of FTB anyway, since none of them are gun guys. The SAICs are political appointees exercising the will of the Attorney General in most cases.

In this climate, we have an Attorney General who is a criminal himself, who ordered multiple programs to allow weapons to be sold to straw-purchasers for the cartels.

During the Clinton years, the AG ordered ATF to systematically go after FFL's in Idaho after Ruby Ridge, which they did. The facts don't matter, only ATF court matters, and if you're in ATF court, you will lose. It's a double-edged sword, dealing with ATF. One moment you think they're your friends, then a new SAIC comes in, and your FFL is revoked. They've done it for simple reasons like saying that your 4473's are out of alphabetical order.

Following the ATF's extrajudical "rulings" may or may not protect you. In the long run, they will shut most FFL's down, only for another batch to start up and repeat the process. Licking the boots of the ATF can buy you some time, but they are criminals at the end of the day, so you can't trust a dog that is known to bite.

There are assumptions being made about the Grendel in the OP, that are way off base, with regard to being sent in the mail, profit, chain of custody, etc., but keep accusing people of crimes on behalf of the ATF. It's good to see where people stand on these issues.

One thing I have found useful is a post history, when determining why someone would defecate all over a thread. That feature will explain right away why it was done in this one.

[Tedward]

The reason I say its a 7 is when I started my business I was refurbishing old Lee Enfield rifles and the local ATF agent informed me although it was gunsmithing I would require a class 7 FFL as I was improving the gun therefore it was manufacturing. I quoted the above ruling and was told as soon as I remove any part from the gun that was manufacturing. Just saying and I have learnt not to question the ATF as you will loose.

I agreed with Ridgerider so if you want to take the risk and disregard the advice, deal with the consequences when it arises. If there is question, stop reading and interpreting the law and telling people it is ok.

Each of you should cover yourself and contact the ATF in Matrinsburg WV. (304)616-4600. I have spoke to them numerous times on this particular topic and that is why I obtained my Class 7 too. Do your OWN homework and don't take others advise, they wont pay your attorneys fee's.

Just friendly advice.

[Ridgerider]

The ATF has made these "rulings" without any judicial oversight. They are not part of the legislative branch, and they have their own court system. If they want to steal your assets, charge you, etc., it doesn't matter what any of the merits of the case are, as they are an unchecked continuing criminal enterprise.

They also strong-arm FFL dealers into being Confidential Informants for them, in exchange for being "allowed" to continue their business and not be arrested on trumped up charges. Dealing with the ATF is a double-edged sword that can turn on you with the simple change of a SAIC or lower manager in your Federal Region, and none of the Federal Regions are on the same sheet of music. They regularly ignore Firearms Technology Branch in D.C., and most SAIC's are totally ignorant of FTB anyway, since none of them are gun guys. The SAICs are political appointees exercising the will of the Attorney General in most cases.

In this climate, we have an Attorney General who is a criminal himself, who ordered multiple programs to allow weapons to be sold to straw-purchasers for the cartels.

During the Clinton years, the AG ordered ATF to systematically go after FFL's in Idaho after Ruby Ridge, which they did. The facts don't matter, only ATF court matters, and if you're in ATF court, you will lose. It's a double-edged sword, dealing with ATF. One moment you think they're your friends, then a new SAIC comes in, and your FFL is revoked. They've done it for simple reasons like saying that your 4473's are out of alphabetical order.

Following the ATF's extrajudical "rulings" may or may not protect you. In the long run, they will shut most FFL's down, only for another batch to start up and repeat the process. Licking the boots of the ATF can buy you some time, but they are criminals at the end of the day, so you can't trust a dog that is known to bite.

So I take it then you are not a licensed FFL and your statement above is your opinion and that you are not trying to suggest that licensed FFL holders are bunch of boot lickers and FFL dealers are Confidential Informants for ATF. WOW FROM A MODERATOR OF A This FORUM

[Tedward]

Ridgerider, you beet me to my post.

Do you have your FFL? You are asking and offering people to send there firearms to you so you can test them. Once it leaves there possession it is to be in route to an FFL for transfer or FFL Holder for gunsmitting or what ever the reason for the transfer.

If you do then that is between you and the person who is sending you there firearm. You offering that puts them in jeopardy if they don't know the law or think of the ramification and don't ask you for your information.

If I go on a hunt in Colorado and want to ship my rifle while I take the plane, it needs to be shipped to an FFL. I don't just ship it to the hotel and pick it up from guest services. The guy in the back room might be a felon and not have good intentions. It protects the shipper from there firearm getting into the wrong hands and it is there responsibility to make sure the firearm is safeguarded.

Again, who cares about your opinion of the stupid laws, and yes lots don't make sense but you still need to follow them weather you like it or not.