Clod Stomper
Unregistered
I gave it one more try. If for no other reason than to get some cases to measure, I tried to shoot my CSS barrel one more time. Cases sized on the short side will chamber, but are hard to extract. Loaded rounds, no matter the OAL, will stick in the lands. When I am able to extract them, there are rifling marks all the way back to the case mouth.
I measured the relative length after firing (protrusion of the case head from a Wilson case headspace gauge) of one round and compared it to several cases fired from an actual Grendel chamber. If my sample of one can be trusted, the chamber of the CSS is about .0045" shorter than the Grendel chamber.
I haven't yet decided exactly how to go about reaming the chamber. My first thought is to remove the barrel and use an empty case to keep track of cutting progress, measuring its protrusion from the breech.
My second thought is to leave it assembled, cut a couple turns, fire and measure the cases. I believe this is the method someone else here used on their CSS barrel. But I'd have to keep making sure the bore and chamber are absolutely clear of steel shavings. Right now I'm leaning toward the first method.
I have cut barrel chambers before. But not for an AR. I don't see how it would be any different, though.
Any thoughts or advice before I get started? Except "take it to a 'smith", or "send it back to CSS". I already have the reamer, so I'm not willing to pay a local gunsmith. And, from what I've read on here, CSS will just say that there's nothing wrong with my chamber and send it back.
Thanks,
Will
I would not touch it with a reamer. You will own the problem once you mess it up. LW uses extremely hard SS and it eats reamers. You are probably not sizing enough.
Have you tried factory loaded ammo?
What brand of dies and press are you using? If you are using Lee dies, that may be your problem.
What brand of brass are you using?
Do you have a Grendel case gauge to check you loaded rounds?
I had to learn how to size for the 6.5 CSS, but once you get the correct setup you will have a good setup.
Clod Stomper
Unregistered
Well, I've already had the barrel shortened and the diameter turned down from the gas block forward, so I probably already do own the problem regardless. It started life as a 28" barrel and .875" under the gas block. It was all I could find at the post-election time. In retrospect, I should have waited, but too late for that.
I have never fired a round of factory Grendel ammo, but I DO have a Wilson case gauge (it's what I used to help me measure length of the fired cases). I have tried Lapua cases and fireformed Winchester. My rounds chamber fine in two Shaw barrels (assuming I use the right bullet and seat it deep enough). If this was my only barrel, I would set the shoulder back some more. I would still definitely cut some more freebore. This barrel has NONE. But I load for 3 different chambers, this one and 2 real Grendels. Since I'm not a bench shooter, I'm not willing to keep brass separate. So I would be severely overworking cases if I sized them to fit the CSS chamber and fired them in the Grendel chamber. Not to mention the excessive headspace they would have in the Grendel.
Oh yeah, I stopped using Lee dies before I even got this barrel. I use standard Redding dies now.
Unfortunately, I'm not the first to deal with this. I can even remember reading about others with the same issues on the old forum.
Thanks for the info on the steel. I'll definitely consider that. Since this may be one of only 2 chambers that I cut with this reamer, I'll probably cut the other one first, then deal with this one in case the LW barrel dulls the reamer.
I appreciate the advice, but after getting another round stuck in the chamber, I'm over it. The case was sized at or even slightly below the minimum in my case gauge. Plus there is still the issue with bullets getting stuck in the lands. I was very serious when I said that there are rifling marks all the way back to the case mouth in extracted rounds. While that may be fine in a bench rifle, that's not what I'm looking for.
I actually wasn't totally correct when I said that rounds would chamber. They will ALMOST chamber. Sometimes even enough for the hammer to fall, but not hit the firing pin. So I have to shove it on in with the forward assist, pull the takedown pin so I can reset the hammer, reassemble and fire. This is not a safe situation.
And yes, I did try to sell the barrel before I cut and contoured it. No luck.
Thanks,
Will
TRy sending it back. They should fix it if factory rounds won"t chamber.Be safe sloan....
I believe that when Hornady came out with that new ammunition, CSS was advertising that they would deepen the chamber to take the new ammunition. My LW CSS has a tight chamber but I reload for it specifically so that is fine with me as the brass should last longer.
I don't think you "own" the barrel as you have not touched the chamber yet. It they made the offer to fix their chamber in the past the offer should still be good. They probably figured that all who want them modified have done so.
http://www.lothar-walther.de/359.php
Go to that website and call the phone number listed. You might have to try a few different time as they answer at different times. I am sure they will make you happy. Tell him that you know that he is not responsible for the barrel forward of the chamber, but you would like the chamber larger so that the loaded rounds that work in your other barrels work in this one too.
Save your reamer for the other barrel. I have heard that they use carbide reamers for LW steel and the speed at which the cutting is done is important to get good results.
Good luck,
David
Clod Stomper
Unregistered
Hmm. I do not remember hearing about that offer. I'm going to call them.
Thank you very much.
Will
Posts: 1,685
Threads: 55
Joined: Mar 2011
Check the info on this link about fixing the chamber issue:
http://www.competitionshooting.com/
Drifter
You better contact Lothar Walther directly or you could die from old age (even if you are a young guy) before CSS gets back to you. Several years ago I sent CSS several messages before I purchased my barrel and I never heard back. Woody was more than helpful.
Bill Alexander
Unregistered
Your chamber could be suffering from a wide number of problems, incorrect radius at the neck/shoulder junction, incorrect origin for the radius, incorrect neck dimensions, incorrect throat angles, incorrect throat clearances, there are a few more on the list as well
The Hornady ammunition is correct, it always has been.
You barrel is wrong, fixing it will simply adjust the wrong.
In the end the manufacturer can either make it right or eat the cost and provide a refund or another bbl that is correct. The choice is theirs to make one you quite wondering why and choose to do something about it.
It is why people choose to buy licensed or authorized Grendel products, they will either work correctly or be replaced ASAP without anymore than a simple phone call.
Not to dredge up a bunch of old stuff....BUT...is it not true that there was a batch of Hornady ammunition that did not work correctly???? Did Hornady not make a change in its product to make it more compatible?
The OP has yet to contact CSS or LW so at this point there has been no refusal to fix the barrel. We do not know for sure that there is anything wrong with the barrel. I remember there was a member here who had an AA barrel which he claimed was defective and he even sent it back to AA. According to that member, AA sent it back saying that there was nothing wrong and the returned barrel still did not work for him.
At one time LW did make barrels for AA and at least for a time AA must have been satisfied with their work. LW made many of Armalite's heavy barrels for the AR10 and they shoot and function very well. I would take a properly chambered LW barrel over a Shaw barrel any day.
Being that the OP has barrels with the official Grendel chamber and does not want to load for the specific rifle, the CSS barrel may be a poor choice for him. Lots of people are happy with CSS barrels and there is no reason for people who do not know for sure who is at fault to start bashing any manufacturer.
I would bet (based on personal experience) that the "rifling marks all the way back to the case mouth" are being caused by the barrel extension (a sharp new barrel extension). I had this problem with a new 22-250 upper on an AR10. You can prove this by using a black marker on the bullet and the neck and if it is the barrel extension, it will leave only one or two scratches per ejection and if you mark the side of the case that faces the ejection port, the scratches will be on that side.
Everyone take a deep breath and let's wait and see what the manufacturer says before we get out sledge hammers out and start bashing.
Clod Stomper
Unregistered
No, I have not yet contacted the manufacturer. Will most likely do so tomorrow or next week.
You may be correct, but I am pretty sure the rifling marks are not from the barrel extension. I've played this game before. I've gotten bullets stuck in Grendel barrels AND a CSS barrel. The CSS barrel is much pickier. Last load to get stuck was a 100 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip loaded at 2.20" OAL (Published OAL by Hodgdon). That's just from memory. I'll have to check my notes for the others.
I have also gotten bullets stuck in the Grendel chambers (loaded to magazine length or less), but once I learned how deep to load them everything was ok. I actually pulled a bullet out of the case once while "mortaring" the rifle to extract the round. Then had to punch the bullet out of the barrel with a cleaning rod. I think I have the OALs for the Grendel barrels sorted out now.
Maybe before I send in the barrel, I'll mark up a round and chamber it <sigh> and take a pic. Perhaps even cast the chamber with Cerrosafe (is that even still available?). I can distinctly remember a chamber cast pic on the old forum that showed the rifling (pretty much) all the way back to the case mouth. I cannot specifically remember if it was a CSS barrel, but I bet it was.
<Backstory> Yes, I really wish I had held out for a Grendel barrel. I had ordered TWO from AA in , I think, 2009. I knew that the wait would be a few weeks or even months. While I was waiting, I found a barrel for sale. It wasn't exactly what I wanted. It was a 28" heavy barrel, but I thought I would just have it cut down and the muzzle threaded. Well, I got impatient and did exactly that. But before I realized how tight this chamber was, I received the two barrels that I had ordered and SOLD them.
Yep, I screwed up. I'm sure this barrel is capable of very tiny groups with proper load development. But all three of these rifles are for hunting (200 yds and under) and informal target shooting (probably out to 500 yds or so). So the looser AA chamber is almost optimum for my needs.
I really do appreciate the responses and advice. Otherwise, I probably would have already messed up my chamber reamer deepening the chamber of this barrel.
I'll post when I hear from LW or CSS.
Thanks to all,
Will
Clod Stomper Wrote:Perhaps even cast the chamber with Cerrosafe (is that even still available?).
Sure is, Brownells has it.
The "chamber cast pic on the old forum " was the AA barrel that I referred to above that was ultimately set to AA and then back to the owner with a clean bill of health.
You would not by chance be fire forming 7.62x39 brass to 6.5 Grendel and trying to use that? When I did that I had to turn the necks as the CCS barrel has a tighter neck and the Winchester brass had extra thick necks when formed.
What brand of dies are you using?
I encourage you to size a case a little at a time until it drops into the chamber and falls out freely if you invert the rifle with the action open. After you have this test case, seat a bullet a little deeper than you think that you need to. "Paint" the dummy round (bullet, neck and shoulder) with a Sharpie marker and mark the side of the case that faces the ejection port. Close the bolt and extract the round. Many times the loaded "dummy" round will be pulled against the barrel extension making what looks like rifling marks on the bullet and case neck, but there will be only 1 or 2 that have actually been created by the barrel extension. You can "paint" the scratches and try it as many times as you like.
Best of luck,
David
Bill Alexander
Unregistered
No! Hornady did not make ammunition that would not work and no they did not change the specifications. Hornady ammunition has always been made to print but certain people took it upon themselves to vilify AA when the ammunition would not work in certain clone chambers. It always functioned in Grendel chambers. I find it interesting that AA was blamed for the problems despite the fact that we did not have knowledge of the geometry of the clones, so how could we work to make it not fit.
The Grendel chamber has a compound throat which in the rear section mimics the 6.5x55 and then runs into a standard 1 1/2 degree. The barrel quoted was inspected and the chamber was indeed correct. The customer in question did not like this and wanted the chamber modified to "his specifications" at our expense. We declined to undertake this and the detrimental postings were the result.
To answer the final observation it is always possible to stick a bullet in a barrel throat (any cartridge). We provide specific loading instructions which cite specific loads and the OAL is given. This does not excuse the reloader from using caution anymore than the maximum load can be taken as the first load to use. Substitution of components, run out and batch to batch variations may require the given figures to be changed to suit.
The tighter throat does not actually improve the accuracy of this cartridge in the specified chamber. We tested a lot of chamber set ups and spend a lots of cash finding out what works. One day I need to post a picture of what an $11,000 reamer windchime looks like. and that is just the stuff we did not trash. The tighter neck is detrimental to function because it is not matched to the case drawing.
Clod Stomper
Unregistered
StoneTower Wrote:The "chamber cast pic on the old forum " was the AA barrel that I referred to above that was ultimately set to AA and then back to the owner with a clean bill of health.
You would not by chance be fire forming 7.62x39 brass to 6.5 Grendel and trying to use that? When I did that I had to turn the necks as the CCS barrel has a tighter neck and the Winchester brass had extra thick necks when formed.
I am, actually. Though I have also used Lapua brass. It's been a while, but I seem to recall the same issue with the Lapua. I'll investigate further.
What brand of dies are you using?
Redding.
I encourage you to size a case a little at a time until it drops into the chamber and falls out freely if you invert the rifle with the action open. After you have this test case, seat a bullet a little deeper than you think that you need to. "Paint" the dummy round (bullet, neck and shoulder) with a Sharpie marker and mark the side of the case that faces the ejection port. Close the bolt and extract the round. Many times the loaded "dummy" round will be pulled against the barrel extension making what looks like rifling marks on the bullet and case neck, but there will be only 1 or 2 that have actually been created by the barrel extension. You can "paint" the scratches and try it as many times as you like.
I will try this. However it still leaves the issue of less headspace than my other two barrels. Though the issue would be simplified if I am mistaken about the rifling marks. I have tried this with one of the barrels, but I can't remember if it was this one. Probably was. But in the interest of being absolutely sure, I'll keep experimenting.
Best of luck,
David
[COLOR="navy"]Better yet, I'll use a Wolf case which seems to have a thinner neck. Size it short and I can eliminate all variables except the bullet.
Thanks,
Will[/COLOR]
Clod Stomper
Unregistered
Bill Alexander Wrote:No! Hornady did not make ammunition that would not work and no they did not change the specifications. Hornady ammunition has always been made to print but certain people took it upon themselves to vilify AA when the ammunition would not work in certain clone chambers. It always functioned in Grendel chambers. I find it interesting that AA was blamed for the problems despite the fact that we did not have knowledge of the geometry of the clones, so how could we work to make it not fit.
The Grendel chamber has a compound throat which in the rear section mimics the 6.5x55 and then runs into a standard 1 1/2 degree. The barrel quoted was inspected and the chamber was indeed correct. The customer in question did not like this and wanted the chamber modified to "his specifications" at our expense. We declined to undertake this and the detrimental postings were the result.
To answer the final observation it is always possible to stick a bullet in a barrel throat (any cartridge). We provide specific loading instructions which cite specific loads and the OAL is given. This does not excuse the reloader from using caution anymore than the maximum load can be taken as the first load to use. Substitution of components, run out and batch to batch variations may require the given figures to be changed to suit.
The tighter throat does not actually improve the accuracy of this cartridge in the specified chamber. We tested a lot of chamber set ups and spend a lots of cash finding out what works. One day I need to post a picture of what an $11,000 reamer windchime looks like. and that is just the stuff we did not trash. The tighter neck is detrimental to function because it is not matched to the case drawing.
Yes, it did take me a while to get used to loading for the Grendel, but when I finally did everything's ok with the Grendel chambers. In the past (for the 24 years I've been handloading), I've always just loaded to mag length or published OAL, and have always been ok. Yes, occasionally I would bump into the rifling when testing function, but not often and never in the AR. Mag length loads in 5.56 and .223 have always worked for me. I just have to pay closer attention to OAL with the Grendel. No big deal.
If, in fact, the .295" neck in my chamber is too small for my fireformed cases, then I am proof that the tighter neck does indeed impede function. At least for my purposes. I COULD use only factory brass, but I have so much 7.62x39 brass it just doesn't make sense. I'll save my factory Grendel brass for targets at longer range. Most of my shooting is done between 25 and 200 yards.
Thanks,
Will
Clod Stomper
Unregistered
Well, I got to play around a bit today with the CSS barrel. Apparently I was wrong about the bullets getting jammed in the rifling. I ass-u-me-d that it was the bullets not allowing the bolt to close completely. I'm still not sure, but it's probably a combination of the headspace being too short and an occasional case neck that is too thick. I have noticed when reaming the necked down Winchester cases that some necks have thicker walls that others. Add that to the fact that the chamber is short and a stuck round is the result.
Here's what I did today. I took a PPU Grendel case and pushed the shoulder back until it would not stick in my CSS chamber. I seated a 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip in it very deeply and dropped it in the chamber. Didn't stick. So I pulled it out to an extra long OAL. It still didn't stick. So there goes my theory about the bullet in the rifling.
I then did the same thing with a necked down Winchester case with the same result. But like I said above, I believe that the case neck thickness varies with these cases.
So what I'll do from this point is wait until I have another round stick and take measurements to find out exact what the cause is. I already know for certain that cases sized to fit within the parameters of my Wilson case gauge are too long for this chamber. That causes them to stick somewhat. Combined with another cause such as a thick neck, that could cause a nearly inextricable round.
Does anyone want to buy this barrel or the whole upper from me before I go to the trouble of sending it off to have the chamber deepened?
Thanks for all the help,
Will
|
