6.5 vs 6.8 hunting ranges

[Y85]

Has anyone gotten their hands on the 129gAccubond LR? Supposedly those are designed to expand down to 1300fps - should extend the range a bit (unless the bullet length takes up too much case space). It may be a better projectile for the 260Rem/6.5CM/264WinMag but I would like to see what it could do in the 6.5G. Anyone have experience?

[XcountryRider]

This December.

[XcountryRider]

Heres my raw data.

[LRRPF52]

Has anyone gotten their hands on the 129gAccubond LR? Supposedly those are designed to expand down to 1300fps - should extend the range a bit (unless the bullet length takes up too much case space). It may be a better projectile for the 260Rem/6.5CM/264WinMag but I would like to see what it could do in the 6.5G. Anyone have experience?

The 129gr ABLR really was made with the larger cases in mind, however, it isn't that much longer than the 129gr SST, and the 129gr SST and 130gr AB are the same length. I'm really interested in what the expansion envelope is with the 129gr ABLR, like where it crosses over from double caliber expansion, to less than double caliber, and how it deforms under the double-caliber range.

If the 1300fps threshold is true, it would be a sick load for SBR's, let alone everything else. BC is excellent on it too.

[nincomp]

Oh no, XcountryRider, I see a storm a'commin'! Crap, crappity crap, CRAP, (thunder clap), crap. Drizzle

Well, there is your crap storm. I did not want you to be disappointed. :p

Seriously though, on this site, you are preaching to the choir. These days, the nastiness of the 6.8/6.5 rivalry is pretty much gone. The long-range advantage goes to the Grendel. Both cartridges use about the same amount of powder, but the Grendel can use bullets with higher BC.* At some distance, the Grendel will pass the SPC and retain higher velocity. Even when the full performance of the improved SPC (the SPC II) is exploited, the overall results will be the same. The performance of the SPC II will increase but the Grendel will eventually out-run it.** The distance at which the switch-over occurs will change, of course. Fans of each cartridge can nit-pick over the exact details, but the conclusion remains the same.

What really matters, though, is that both are excellent hunting cartridges and both can be used in modified AR15's. Most game is taken at less than 200 yards. Both cartridges excel at ranges like this. Both can be lethal to many animals at distances well beyond 200 yds, with the advantage going to the Grendel, all things being equal.
When it comes to long-range hunting, well, I agree with the comment that relatively few hunters have the ability to consistently make quick, clean kills at 300 yards and over. Even when buck-fever (or swine flue) comes into play, hunting ethics are still important.
That's my story and I's sticking to it.




* Look at the provenance of each cartridge. The Grendel directly relates to a long-range target round, the 6.5 PPCX campaigned by Arne Brennan. The SPC has a fuzzier lineage (30-30 maybe?) but more distinct combat-related goals including overmatching the 7.62x39 and being more effective than the 5.56x45 out of short barrels. The SPC is a Special Purpose Cartridge, but it was never intended to be a 1000yd round one.
These differences really do matter when shooting targets at long distance. For most hunting... not so much.

** The 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC were announced at about the same time, but the Grendel had the distinct advantage of Bill Alexander making sure that no one screwed up the design. As for the 6.8, well, let's just say that its developers uttered "No, you've got to be kidding me" when they discovered that the wrong drawings had been submitted to and accepted by SAAMI. Nevertheless, thee short-range / long-range characteristics noted above would apply.

[XcountryRider]

Oh no, XcountryRider, I see a storm a'commin'! Crap, crappity crap, CRAP, (thunder clap), crap. Drizzle

Well, there is your crap storm. I did not want you to be disappointed. :p

Seriously though, on this site, you are preaching to the choir. These days, the nastiness of the 6.8/6.5 rivalry is pretty much gone. The long-range advantage goes to the Grendel. Both cartridges use about the same amount of powder, but the Grendel can use bullets with higher BC.* At some distance, the Grendel will pass the SPC and retain higher velocity. Even when the full performance of the improved SPC (the SPC II) is exploited, the overall results will be the same. The performance of the SPC II will increase but the Grendel will eventually out-run it.** The distance at which the switch-over occurs will change, of course. Fans of each cartridge can nit-pick over the exact details, but the conclusion remains the same.

What really matters, though, is that both are excellent hunting cartridges and both can be used in modified AR15's. Most game is taken at less than 200 yards. Both cartridges excel at ranges like this. Both can be lethal to many animals at distances well beyond 200 yds, with the advantage going to the Grendel, all things being equal.
When it comes to long-range hunting, well, I agree with the comment that relatively few hunters have the ability to consistently make quick, clean kills at 300 yards and over. Even when buck-fever (or swine flue) comes into play, hunting ethics are still important.
That's my story and I's sticking to it.




* Look at the provenance of each cartridge. The Grendel directly relates to a long-range target round, the 6.5 PPCX campaigned by Arne Brennan. The SPC has a fuzzier lineage (30-30 maybe?) but more distinct combat-related goals including overmatching the 7.62x39 and being more effective than the 5.56x45 out of short barrels. The SPC is a Special Purpose Cartridge, but it was never intended to be a 1000yd round one.
These differences really do matter when shooting targets at long distance. For most hunting... not so much.

** The 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC were announced at about the same time, but the Grendel had the distinct advantage of Bill Alexander making sure that no one screwed up the design. As for the 6.8, well, let's just say that its developers uttered "No, you've got to be kidding me" when they discovered that the wrong drawings had been submitted to and accepted by SAAMI. Nevertheless, thee short-range / long-range characteristics noted above would apply.

I was expecting woohoo to jump in

[nincomp]

Though the 270AR SPR is just a wildcat, at this stage, let's give Woohoo credit for seeing what's hot (6.5mm to 6.8mm), where Remington missed the mark (see my letter to Freedom Group, Inc. Chairman & CEO, George Kollitides --- scroll down the Page to Reply #49 http://bullpupforum.com/index.php?PHPSES...ic=1060.40).

In view of all the above, I submit that the Remington R-15 .30 RAR platform, an AR-10 disguised as an AR-15 (a wolf, in sheep's clothing), represents a viable platform for a full-blown 6.5mm competitor to the upcoming 270AR SPR.

I have seen a 6.5mm BRX upper for sale recently. I won't tell you where I saw it ( but WooHoo might).

If you really want to play with over-the-top cartridges for modified AR15s, go for the Dtech 6.5/.243 WSSM. Instead of the measly 0.470" base dia of the .308 Win/ .260 Rem/ 6.5 BRX, it has a manly .555" diameter base. Sure, the cartridge looks silly, but it is fast!

The main problem that I see is that when you show up at the range with a WSSM-chambered AR15, the guys might think that you are trying to compensate for a rather small something (if you know what I mean).

[LRRPF52]

Can't load 6.5 WSSM to mag-length with the long ogive bullets. D-Tech will even say the same thing. Needs at least a tenth more COL, if not longer I think.

[nincomp]

I was mainly looking for an extreme example of a large diameter, high volume case that used 6.5mm bullets and could fit into an AR-15. The point was to show that there has already been significant tinkering with larger cases that use 6.5mm bullets and still fit into an AR15.

Yes, bullet length is a problem with both the WSSM and 30 RAR cartridges. Long-range performance has been sacrificed for high velocity. It would be interesting to see the distance at which the velocity of a long-range loading of the 6.5 Grendel would match the 6.5/243 WSSM. The same for kinetic energy. The comparison of trajectories would be interesting as well.

I suppose that it might be possible to push back the shoulder of the WSSM and trim the case length to allow longer, higher-BC bullets to be used. Then again wall thickness issues may well arise. Even if it could be done, it would be a real pain in the behind. How well such a short, stubbly cartridge would feed in an AR would likely be an issue too.

The 6.5 Grendel is already a good AR15 cartridge. It is probably best to avoid screwing around with it. I believe that Bill Alexander once said that at some point in the search for more power and increased effective range, it just makes more sense to go with a longer cartridge and a different weapon system. That makes sense to me.

[Bigfoot]

This December.

Or sooner. Been watching the Nosler forum and this guy shot three small deer with the 129 AB LR out of a 260. He's says their on the soft side at that speed. Jug test shows the same thing, 43% weight retention.

http://www.noslerreloading.com/viewtopic...47&t=25842

I'll be buying some for sure.

[XcountryRider]

I posted on AR15.com and i'm sure the hate is going to flowwww.....

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_121/627143_.html&page=1

[adrenaline junkie]

I think they're all fine rounds. I have three of those listed and would like to add one or two more. Your numbers are a bit weak though. Most hornady sst shot though an 18 inch barrel will be closer to 2600 fps. Mine was around 2612. Of course the grendel numbers my be higher too, mine is 24 inches but ive never shot any factory loads through it. Cant find any. Imho as far as hunting distances go, theres not much difference between the two. 400 is pretty much a max on either.

I also think the 30ar with a 150 grain bullet at 2600 is going to make your graph look a lot different. Sure wish remington wasn't dropping the ball on that cartridge. That would have been one of the best hunting ars made yet.

[XcountryRider]

I think they're all fine rounds. I have three of those listed and would like to add one or two more. Your numbers are a bit weak though. Most hornady sst shot though an 18 inch barrel will be closer to 2600 fps. Mine was around 2612. Of course the grendel numbers my be higher too, mine is 24 inches but ive never shot any factory loads through it. Cant find any. Imho as far as hunting distances go, theres not much difference between the two. 400 is pretty much a max on either.

I also think the 30ar with a 150 grain bullet at 2600 is going to make your graph look a lot different. Sure wish remington wasn't dropping the ball on that cartridge. That would have been one of the best hunting ars made yet.

I used factory numbers. My 18in Grendel does much better as well. I agree on the 30AR but they don't load 30AR in a higher BC 150gr bullet.

[LRRPF52]

I'm looking closely again at the 30 RAR, and it only has a 1.530" case length, with a .300" long neck. The Grendel has a case length of 1.520" with a ~.251" neck length. You don't even have to change the shoulder location, and you get up to 40.5gr of usable case capacity.

You do need a new upper, bolt carrier group, barrel extension, and magazine though. It would probably do best with a RLGS and 22" barrel or longer. SAAMI pressure for 30 RAR is 55,000 psi, so you basically get 300 Savage performance from it. Now try to extrapolate 300 Savage down to a 6.5mm load, and you're under .260 Rem and above 6.5 Grendel.

A 24" Grendel will push a 129gr SST or IB at around 2470fps max load. A 24" .260 Rem will push a 129gr SST or IB at 2900fps max. A halfway mark for the theoretical 6.5 RAR would be 2685fps for a 129gr. If you combined the 129gr Nosler Accubond LR with the 30 RAR case, that would give you a true long-range hunting, lightweight AR15.

The choice of a 30 bore was a strategic mistake for the RAR. If they had done 6.5mm, it would have really stirred the market up. Look at this picture and notice how long the neck is:

[bwaites]

They built the neck to be equal to the caliber, and they should have gone shorter. America loves .30 cals, and thats the market they went to. Its a single stack, so it wouldn't have the appeal the Grendel has in a lot of ways, but it would have been a GREAT hunting cartridge in 6.5.

Make the neck .25 and it gives you a little more boilerspace and go with 6.5. It would have rocked. I almost bought one just because they got so cheap.

[adrenaline junkie]

The 6.5 caliber, has never really sold all that well for most of the big companies. 260, 6.5 creedmore, 6.5x55, 6.5x284 264WM etc have all been wildcats, or produced for years, but have never taken off well to the hunting public. They're all excellent cartridges, I bought a 260 in '96 when they came out, and my cousin has a 264, but I guess they've been over shadowed by larger caliber guns like the 270, 7mm Magnum, 308, 30-06, 300WM etc. America loves 30 calibers, Hell, look how well the weak 300BO is sellling. While I think a cartridge between 6.5-7mm would have been a better choice ballistically and in the field hunting, I don't think it would have sold well. The biggest problem with the 30RAR was the entire gun scare after Dec 20, and the ability to even make the barrels and ammo that were already out there. I think (hope) in the future, they will bring it back around, but supplies are the problem. No brass... No 30RAR If they can't keep up with the demand for 223/308/9mm/40 etc, they're not going to spend time making other brass. There's a thread on this forum about possible problems even getting 6.5 grendel brass in the future. When and if they ever do come out with it, I think a 6.5, or even 7mm and even 6mm variants for those that actually like hunting with 6mm (NOT me) could be awesome.


IMHO, threads like this, trying to compare two cartriges that have had a rivalry for years, and in some cases is finally dying down, is just trolling. The facts are, with the advent of some of the new powders and bullets out, both are great hunting guns up to about 400 yards, but the wise man will take a bigger gun when he knows he needs to shoot that far at an animal. I have one of each, and am building a couple more. One in a short barreled pistol, and one to give to my brother for Christmas. My choice will come down to what I can actually find for a good price....

[LRRPF52]

I would argue that the competitive circuits have been driving cartridge design and popularity based on performance. Let me offer some examples:

* .300 Winchester Magnum used to be one of the most popular practical long-range competition chamberings. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with one at a match now. The most popular bore diameters are 6.5mm and 7mm in my experience for matches that involve distances up to 1000yds.

* For shorter matches, 6mm is very popular, as is 6.5mm.

* The 6.5x55 has sold well all over the world, but the .270 Winchester probably prevented it from gaining the population it should have in the US. The .270 Winchester also set a bar of velocity that many manufacturers sought to top, leading to the velocity craze that became a huge trend in the US, which has had lasting effects on bullet shape and construction to match the insatiable appetite for more and more velocity.

* .260 Remington and 6.5 CM are two of the most popular long-range chamberings now, and both are SAAMI cartridges.

20 years ago, when asking about hunting chamberings, you would be bombarded with suggestions of 30-06, .308, .270, 7mm Mag, etc. Nowadays, the 6.5 bore almost always comes up in the conversation among anybody who is following the market and growing trends, especially as people look at a rifle that their wives and kids can shoot. You can pretty much scratch all of the heavy-recoiling calibers off that list, and replace them with 6.5mm.

I like to point out the ballistics of the .260 Rem vs. a .30-06, even when you drive the 150gr pills over 3000fps from the -06 versus the 140gr at 2740fps from the .260 Rem, that the .260 Rem will beat the -06 by 275yds for speed and energy, with much less recoil, significantly less powder, a smaller, lighter action, and less wind drift. It will even match the 130gr 270 at 300yds.

When you step down to the 130gr 6.5mm class of bullets, recoil is reduced a little more, and velocity will actually give you an edge over the 140's.

As to the 6.5 Grendel vs. 6.8 SPC II debate, we've found ourselves more as allies who are able to demonstrate that the AR15 carbine is an excellent hunting platform for medium game within common hunting distances, with very mild recoil and a great selection of bullets. There is nothing to be gained by attempting to provoke or inflame years-old debates. A lot of hunters and competitive shooters who got into the 6.8 have since got into the Grendel.

We're into a generation of AR15 evolution where the past 13 years have been well-supported with hunting-capable calibers, whether we look at the .50 Beowulf, the .458 SOCOM, the 6.5 Grendel, or the 6.8 SPC. I see this as a huge evolutionary step in taking the AR15 platform to the next level, with these cartridges to stay in the mainstream for years to come as go-to hunting solutions.

Where I see things going next is the direction that the BR, RAR, and WSSM cases are taking, which will basically put common short action and long-action performance into the AR15 or an AR15-type frame, without the weight penalty of the AR10.

[adrenaline junkie]

I agree with everything you said. I think the 6.5 is a great caliber, in whatever cartridge it's in. But I think the general hunting population, that grew up on their grandpas 30/30, 308 and 30/06 love the 30 caliber for hunting. The 260 Remington isn't even chambered by Remington in any of their guns anymore because the hunting crowd buys more 30 caliber guns than anything else followed closely by the 270 and 7mm magnum. I'm not trying to disparage the 6.5, back in '96 when I first read about it in Outdoor Life, I went to the gun store and pestered them about ordering a 260 for weeks or months until it finally showed up in their catalog. I hate 243's wanted a good caliber for my wife, and daughter who was just born that year, and after shooting some deer with it, I fell in love with it myself.

I also agree that the 6.5 caliber has come a LONG way's in the last 20 years, but I still think Remington wouldn't have done it in any other caliber. I think they feel like the 260 Remington, the 7mm08 Remington were both failures because they didn't light up the world the way the 7mm Remington, 338 Winchester and 300 Winchester did back in the 50's. Now, they've pretty much abandoned the 30RAR too, which I think sucks.

I would like to think that without the big shortages etc that came after last december, more cartridges would have followed the 30RAR. 6mm,6.5,277,7mm... maybe even go up from there to a 338 or 358? Hopefully that still happens when things "settle" down...

[LRRPF52]

The driving factor, which is really ironic in all of this, will be the Stoner design at the end of the day. So many people, especially women and kids, have been raised on what a rifle is, based on their introduction to rifles with the AR15, not daddy's Mauser action anymore.

A lot of women and children that shot daddy's/uncle's/grandpa's long-action Mauser in .30-06 or .270 when I was growing up shot it once, never wanted to shoot it again, and left the men and older boys to go shooting from then on. The conversation before she pulled the trigger went like this:

"Does it kick really hard?"

"Nah, it ain't that bad...(grin)"

[SIZE="6"]KA-KOOOOOGGGGSSHHHHHHHH![/SIZE]

Rifle falls on ground

"Ouch! That thing HURTS like a summabitch! I'm NEVER shooting it again!" (And you made my first experience with firearms absolutely horrible, you dumb SOB!)

Today, a young couple goes to the range with an AR15 carbine in 5.56, the dude hands his wife/girlfriend a magazine, and tells her to shoot it.

"Does it kick a lot? I'm nervous."

"No, it ain't that bad..."

BANG!

BANG!

BANG BANG

BANG BANG BANG

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG

"Give me another magazine! This is fun! (and this now belongs to me, in case you were wondering)."

That just opened up a lot of doors in ways that we're just beginning to see. Daddy, I want to go hunting with you too. Can we take the AR15? Well, it isn't allowed in this State because it's too small of a caliber....

[keystone183]

The driving factor, which is really ironic in all of this, will be the Stoner design at the end of the day. So many people, especially women and kids, have been raised on what a rifle is, based on their introduction to rifles with the AR15, not daddy's Mauser action anymore.

A lot of women and children that shot daddy's/uncle's/grandpa's long-action Mauser in .30-06 or .270 when I was growing up shot it once, never wanted to shoot it again, and left the men and older boys to go shooting from then on. The conversation before she pulled the trigger went like this:

"Does it kick really hard?"

"Nah, it ain't that bad...(grin)"

[SIZE="6"]KA-KOOOOOGGGGSSHHHHHHHH![/SIZE]

Rifle falls on ground

"Ouch! That thing HURTS like a summabitch! I'm NEVER shooting it again!" (And you made my first experience with firearms absolutely horrible, you dumb SOB!)

Today, a young couple goes to the range with an AR15 carbine in 5.56, the dude hands his wife/girlfriend a magazine, and tells her to shoot it.

"Does it kick a lot? I'm nervous."

"No, it ain't that bad..."

BANG!

BANG!

BANG BANG

BANG BANG BANG

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG

"Give me another magazine! This is fun! (and this now belongs to me, in case you were wondering)."

That just opened up a lot of doors in ways that we're just beginning to see. Daddy, I want to go hunting with you too. Can we take the AR15? Well, it isn't allowed in this State because it's too small of a caliber....

AHHHAHAHA. Laughed my head off. SO true.

I just spent 30 minutes of hunting time this weekend convincing my wife that my 24" grendel kicked less than the .257 she loves so much. (Mostly because she doesn't like the loudness of an AR, I think). I literally had to shoot them back to back to prove it, while she videoed. I was actually surprised myself at how much more the .257 kicked. Now, i am afraid that as you said, that is her gun.