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Tedward Wrote:Your starting to nit pick Drifter.... Just leave it that this round the Stoner was faster. Take 2????
Sorry, but I simply consider the velocity increase insignificant when the ES for the same barrel was actually higher than the velocity advantage. But if it makes you feel better, I'll acknowledge that the Stoner was indeed faster.
More importantly, it appears that the barrel in question is safe when factory ammo is used. And the barrel can't be blamed for being fed hot handloads in the past.
Drifter
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Drifter - I agree with your conclusion based on the data you were given. However, when you see the individual data points, I hope you will agree with the conclusion I've made. Here is the raw data.
Using the Magnetospeed:
24" Satern: 2638, 2637,2645,2635,2641
24" Liberty: 2660, 2675, 2681, 2648, 2701
So you see, ALL of the Liberty barrel speeds are higher than the Satern. The ES of the Liberty is higher than the difference between averages because of the one (very) high value.
XcountryRider
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It also matches Hornadys observation that they were seeing 60fps faster as well. They were using a barrel to test batches of ammo and called Steve Saturn about it.
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rickOshay Wrote:Drifter - I agree with your conclusion based on the data you were given. However, when you see the individual data points, I hope you will agree with the conclusion I've made. Here is the raw data.
Using the Magnetospeed:
24" Satern: 2638, 2637,2645,2635,2641
24" Liberty: 2660, 2675, 2681, 2648, 2701
So you see, ALL of the Liberty barrel speeds are higher than the Satern. The ES of the Liberty is higher than the difference between averages because of the one (very) high value.
I have an idea, put a full magazine out in the sun and let it bake for a few hours, 97 degrees and sunny with no overcast, and see how much your velocities increase. You might get to 2800 fps  I was going to say the oven but that might be unsafe...
XcountryRider
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Ill pass. That load is staying in the notes.
Ah well both barrels are made by Satern so this just means they make a great product either way you go Great test. I liked the idea of 3 chronos you cant get any more thorough than that!
Tedward Wrote:Your starting to nit pick Drifter.... Just leave it that this round the Stoner was faster. Take 2????
Next go around, the Stoner needs to go first. Either way the difference isn't so dramatic I would go out an buy a Stoner for 26fps, I already have one, but accuracy is more important then the speed advantage in this bout. Also I watched XCR and he was pretty fast at shooting and that probably has something to do with accuracy AND he was resting on his barrel on the bag and blocks of wood.... What is up with that XCR???? Free Float Barrel but since it was about speed, really doesn't matter... so I don't think the point was accuracy but speed and I think the point is taken and now you need to use cold ammo to prove you didn't have an advantage....
This is never going to end you do realize this
At least that what I think...
He's not nit-picking. 2650fps with a 24" barrel and a factory 123gr boat tail bullet is totally normal. Any deviations +/- that of 25fps are either environmental or barrel characteristics. The factory Hornady 123gr load is not what we were concerned with, it was the 120gr TSX loaded to 2820fps. We can shoot 123gr A-MAX all day through 24" guns and get velocities in the mid-2600's. That only confirms that the barrel produces normal velocities that any 24" barrel would produce. If the factory 123gr A-MAX was showing 2730fps or higher, that would be unusually fast.
XcountryRider Wrote:It shows the chrony is good which means the measurement of last week of Shawns Liberty barrel is good as well and it was 2655fps which matches my MV and also validates my 18in barrel MV of 2560 with 123gr Amax. I'm sure as more folks get chronys that own Liberty's and shoot factory amax as the standard we'll get more results. One question is just one batch fast or all Liberty's? Is it just the 18 and 24in barrels or are the 16in fast as well?
There's nothing confirming that these barrels are unusually fast. You have normal range velocities with factory ammo in 97 F conditions (altitude will not affect muzzle velocity either, only external ballistics past the muzzle from about 50yds on out in any measurable click value). Temperature definitely has an effect on velocity, especially with ball powders.
For an 18" barrel, 2500fps is the norm with 123gr A-MAX, some higher, some a little lower. With my 16", using a factory 123gr Scenar load in hot temps, I got readings as high as 2583fps. When I shot them later on in cooler weather, I got a very consistent 2450fps with 7fps ES, which is where that load/barrel should be. The temptation is to go around and advertise my 16" as a 2580fps capable carbine with a 123gr Scenar, but that would be misleading on my part, which led me to do some more testing with that load so I wouldn't cheat myself out of realistic drop data, and possibly reduce my bolt life.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:He's not nit-picking. 2650fps with a 24" barrel and a factory 123gr boat tail bullet is totally normal. Any deviations +/- that of 25fps are either environmental or barrel characteristics. The factory Hornady 123gr load is not what we were concerned with, it was the 120gr TSX loaded to 2820fps. We can shoot 123gr A-MAX all day through 24" guns and get velocities in the mid-2600's. That only confirms that the barrel produces normal velocities that any 24" barrel would produce. If the factory 123gr A-MAX was showing 2730fps or higher, that would be unusually fast.
I do see what your saying about his previous post of 2820. I was kind of joking anyhow when Drifter ended with a "question" on his response to there findings. .
Tedward Wrote:I do see what your saying about his previous post of 2820. I was kind of joking anyhow when Drifter ended with a "question" on his response to there findings. .
Drifter is one of the people who has a significant amount of trigger time and reloading experience with the Grendel, to the point that he has burned-out barrels and has owned at least 5 different Grendel AR15's. He's a very experienced hand-loader, and has the maturity to approach this process with much forethought and caution. When he posts something, especially about hand-loading for this cartridge, I pay close attention.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:He's not nit-picking. 2650fps with a 24" barrel and a factory 123gr boat tail bullet is totally normal. Any deviations +/- that of 25fps are either environmental or barrel characteristics. The factory Hornady 123gr load is not what we were concerned with, it was the 120gr TSX loaded to 2820fps. We can shoot 123gr A-MAX all day through 24" guns and get velocities in the mid-2600's. That only confirms that the barrel produces normal velocities that any 24" barrel would produce. If the factory 123gr A-MAX was showing 2730fps or higher, that would be unusually fast.
And this Reasoning for the AR Stoner to be faster, it just cant be the barrel, no possible way. " but if ammo was baking in direct sunlight at ~97ºF, it's not surprising that the last barrel ran the fastest and with the highest ES."
I'm done, I am not here to argue, just responding to his question and reading information. I will take into account his hand-loads and compare it to the Hornady Load Book and don't worry, I will be safe and not experiment with to much powder or the wrong type if anyone is worried about that too...
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LRRPF52 Wrote:Drifter is one of the people who has a significant amount of trigger time and reloading experience with the Grendel, to the point that he has burned-out barrels and has owned at least 5 different Grendel AR15's. He's a very experienced hand-loader, and has the maturity to approach this process with much forethought and caution. When he posts something, especially about hand-loading for this cartridge, I pay close attention.
I'm reading, not implementing. I got it and do know who is doing what and are veterans.
Thanks got to go.... Traffic is building here in DC, another Shooting at the Navy Yard across the road.
It's a good time to bring that point up as well. Ammunition should not be left in direct sunlight, especially in a car on the dashboard. When I shoot in extreme hot temps, I keep my boxes or mags in my range bag, or in the shade. But even then, my chrono will register higher velocities with most ball powders, as in the case of my 16" Grendel pushing the 123gr Scenar at 2583fps from a factory load.
XcountryRider
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And thats why i said haters going to hate lol its never enough.
XcountryRider
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The amount of time from the first to the last shooter was just minutes. The rounds were not baking in the sun.
XcountryRider
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Time stamp on video one was 14:35 and video 3 was 14:45.
If you're shooting in 97 F, everything will be warmer, to include the gun and the ammo, and your velocities were still within expectations for a 24" with a factory 123gr. There's nothing to hate. "Haters" is an inappropriate description for the thread title, and any comments about normal loads in this discussion.
The only hate will be the regret if someone runs a 120gr TSX at 2820fps from a Grendel. That is a dangerous load in any barrel.
XcountryRider
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LRRPF52 Wrote:If you're shooting in 97 F, everything will be warmer, to include the gun and the ammo, and your velocities were still within expectations for a 24" with a factory 123gr. There's nothing to hate. "Haters" is an inappropriate description for the thread title, and any comments about normal loads in this discussion.
The only hate will be the regret if someone runs a 120gr TSX at 2820fps from a Grendel. That is a dangerous load in any barrel.
See earlier post on this subject its off topic.
XcountryRider
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Bill Alexander claimed 5R barrels were slower and we needed to add powder to make up the dropped velocity.
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LRRPF52 Wrote:If you're shooting in 97 F, everything will be warmer, to include the gun and the ammo, and your velocities were still within expectations for a 24" with a factory 123gr. There's nothing to hate. "Haters" is an inappropriate description for the thread title, and any comments about normal loads in this discussion.
The only hate will be the regret if someone runs a 120gr TSX at 2820fps from a Grendel. That is a dangerous load in any barrel.
Again as XCR is saying, then everyones ammo and guns were warmer, 97 degrees, not hot. Whats the temperature of a human being, oh ya, 98 degrees. Hum seems thats not to hot unless XCR was sitting directly in the sun baking and everyone else was keeeping theres in the shade so XCR could say 5R was faster. Come on, let it die....
I guess the topic should have been what you wanted to post and call. "What I Say Goes, No Butt's About It!!". He posted what he wanted and provided his results with factory ammo. The 5R is still faster.
Now if the issue is hot(over powdered) loads, then say that, not an issue or controversy with 5R Liberty Barrels. That was the topic. This keeps getting all twisted for whatever someone wants to post and pick out of the original topic and put XCR down that he is wrong or hes dangerous or passing bad advise to newcomers.
You guys sound like someone interpreting the bible the way they want and pick a verse out in the middle of a sentance to prove a point. What came first, the egg or the chicken. WHO CARES!!!
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