Grendel and 5R Rifling (Haters gonna Hate)

[Drifter]

First some of you were telling us ar stoner barrels were made in PI sweet shops and now your saying they are going to explode?

Any brand can potentially be problematic in the repeated presence of excessive pressure.

[PA_Allen]

I hate to wade into this, but I've got a 16" stoner barrel with the 5r rifling. Mine produces velocities right in line with what is expected from a 16" barrel. Loads from my 16" ARS barrel are about 100 fps slower than the same loads from my 20" LW barrel...Just what you would expect from 4" of barrel reduction. In my 16" ARS I get about 2430 fps for 120-123 gr class bullets and 2675-2700 fps for 100 gr bullets. These velocities are right where pressure tested industry data says they should be. Physics is physics and there is no free lunch with ballistics. Either your pressures are high or your chrono readings are bad to be reading velocities that high. My 2 cents. Be safe.
Best,
PA

[XcountryRider]

I hate to wade into this, but I've got a 16" stoner barrel with the 5r rifling. Mine produces velocities right in line with what is expected from a 16" barrel. Loads from my 16" ARS barrel are about 100 fps slower than the same loads from my 20" LW barrel...Just what you would expect from 4" of barrel reduction. In my 16" ARS I get about 2430 fps for 120-123 gr class bullets and 2675-2700 fps for 100 gr bullets. These velocities are right where pressure tested industry data says they should be. Physics is physics and there is no free lunch with ballistics. Either your pressures are high or your chrono readings are bad to be reading velocities that high. My 2 cents. Be safe.
Best,
PA

Please post up your velocity for 123gr amax.

[noone]

As the prices between high end cut rifled and button rifled barrels are comparable, what difference why does there seem to be a preference for a button rifled barrel over a cut rifled barrel? Of course when getting into the various methods of rifling a barrel, we would also need to consider having the barrel hammer forged.

Everyone has a logic and reason for preferences, I'm just wondering why button rifled?

[PA_Allen]

Please post up your velocity for 123gr amax.

I've never tried the 123 Amax factory if that is what you mean. Here is all the chrono data I have for my 16" ARS:

Hornady brass, rem 7.5 primers and XBR-8208 powder

123 SST, 28 gr, 2430 fps

100 NBT, 30 gr, 2710 fps

These recipes are proven performers. Others on the forum have reported good results and similar velocities.

- PA

[Tedward]

As the prices between high end cut rifled and button rifled barrels are comparable, what difference why does there seem to be a preference for a button rifled barrel over a cut rifled barrel? Of course when getting into the various methods of rifling a barrel, we would also need to consider having the barrel hammer forged.

Everyone has a logic and reason for preferences, I'm just wondering why button rifled?

Like you said a lot of people have preferences. There are many different types as you stated and here is an article someone posted the other day. I read it and not one is better than the other, just preference and methods of making them and price to make them. Any quality barrel will be around the same price but of course there will be even a more expensive one somewhere with more polish or something for them to charge you more for it.

My end reason for one or the other is availability, quality and price. I am not a marksman for profession so I don't need the Lamborghini, a Porsche will do...actually a Corvette, 67...

Good reading here, again opinon...http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

[Ridgerider]

Well said

[kamrr4437]

There are alot of good button rifled barrels out there. And alot of them cant be beat for there price. But on average a good cut rifled barrel and the right optics will paired up with this particular caliber will make even a novice shoot phenomenal. You get what you pay for and really where a cut rifled barrel starts to shine is the accuracy that it holds at farther distances sure alot of button barrels shoot great at 100 to 200 yards and some of them even shoot great out to 1000 but most wont compete with a cut rifled barrel at the greater distances. For range and precision i would have a cut rifled barrel. For a deer gun or a blaster to have fun with even out to 500 yards a good button barrel would be great. Just my opinion though. It really just depends on your intended use for the rifle.

[XcountryRider]

I've never tried the 123 Amax factory if that is what you mean. Here is all the chrono data I have for my 16" ARS:

Hornady brass, rem 7.5 primers and XBR-8208 powder

123 SST, 28 gr, 2430 fps

100 NBT, 30 gr, 2710 fps

These recipes are proven performers. Others on the forum have reported good results and similar velocities.

- PA

Can your chrony a 123 Amax factory load?

[XcountryRider]

I hope you are right, for your own safety (and anyone else around when your weapon is discharged).

But be sure to reference Bill A's previous post from a page or two back, especially the last sentence:

I take industry leaders comments about competitors products into respectful consideration.

[NugginFutz]

Like you said a lot of people have preferences. There are many different types as you stated and here is an article someone posted the other day. I read it and not one is better than the other, just preference and methods of making them and price to make them. Any quality barrel will be around the same price but of course there will be even a more expensive one somewhere with more polish or something for them to charge you more for it.

My end reason for one or the other is availability, quality and price. I am not a marksman for profession so I don't need the Lamborghini, a Porsche will do...actually a Corvette, 67...

Good reading here, again opinon...http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm

That was one of the best descriptions of the process of barrel making I've read in a while. As you said, it is one maker's opinion, but I've personally seen the tooling marks left in a button rifled barrel. They were truly horrifying, as seen through a bore scope. That was a Remington 700 LE Boone and Crocket in .243, which is no longer a family member. It was shooting poorly, and one of the area's best gunsmiths recommended last rites for the barrel, so it went back to Remington.

[LRRPF52]

I hate to wade into this, but I've got a 16" stoner barrel with the 5r rifling. Mine produces velocities right in line with what is expected from a 16" barrel. Loads from my 16" ARS barrel are about 100 fps slower than the same loads from my 20" LW barrel...Just what you would expect from 4" of barrel reduction. In my 16" ARS I get about 2430 fps for 120-123 gr class bullets and 2675-2700 fps for 100 gr bullets. These velocities are right where pressure tested industry data says they should be. Physics is physics and there is no free lunch with ballistics. Either your pressures are high or your chrono readings are bad to be reading velocities that high. My 2 cents. Be safe.
Best,
PA

My 16" AA/ER Shaw barrel does about the same. The Hornady factory 123gr A-MAX load averages 2460fps the last time I chrono'd it. I also have hit 2700fps with the 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.

If you want velocity, all it takes is pressure...just like a fragmentation grenade.

[XcountryRider]

My 16" AA/ER Shaw barrel does about the same. The Hornady factory 123gr A-MAX load averages 2460fps the last time I chrono'd it. I also have hit 2700fps with the 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip.

If you want velocity, all it takes is pressure...just like a fragmentation grenade.

My 18in barrel is sending out the 100gr Nosler BT at 2700fps with 30.5gr of H335. I want to try AA2520 on it to see if i can get more.

[LRRPF52]

My 18in barrel is sending out the 100gr Nosler BT at 2700fps with 30.5gr of H335. I want to try AA2520 on it to see if i can get more.

Hornady's 9th Edition shows 2700fps max at safe levels from their 18" barrel with 100gr projos. Fastest powder was Accurate 2460. Alexander Arms' also got the fastest results with 100gr Scenar using Accurate 2460. Haven't seen any data for 100gr anything with AA2520, other than with the 100gr Partition, which is a totally different ball game again because of the bullet construction that has a start pressure consideration like the solids, even though it's not a solid.

If you are going to continue to toss seasoned advice aside and run pressures over 62,000 psi in a SAAMI MOAP 50,000 psi system, consider lapping your bolt to the extension so that you know you will have as balanced load-bearing on the bolt lugs as possible. That will allow you to get away with a little more longer before you break your bolt(s).

[XcountryRider]

Hornady's 9th Edition shows 2700fps max at safe levels from their 18" barrel with 100gr projos. Fastest powder was Accurate 2460. Alexander Arms' also got the fastest results with 100gr Scenar using Accurate 2460. Haven't seen any data for 100gr anything with AA2520, other than with the 100gr Partition, which is a totally different ball game again because of the bullet construction that has a start pressure consideration like the solids, even though it's not a solid.

If you are going to continue to toss seasoned advice aside and run pressures over 62,000 psi in a SAAMI MOAP 50,000 psi system, consider lapping your bolt to the extension so that you know you will have as balanced load-bearing on the bolt lugs as possible. That will allow you to get away with a little more longer before you break your bolt(s).

Seasoned advice? 62,000 psi what are you talking about?? I said i was going to try a different powder and now your talking about running pressures over 62,000?

[Drifter]

I take industry leaders comments about competitors products into respectful consideration.

You seem to be missing the point. It's not about competition in the industry.

Everyone is trying to point out to you that super-fast muzzle velocity can only occur with the presence of excessive pressure. Your speeds are well beyond the normal barrel variations, regardless of type of rifling.

Everyone is not speaking out for the sake of an internet argument. The effort isn't to disagree with your assessment, nor to insult you. People are speaking out in the interest of your safety.

This forum has a good history of shooters helping each other. It's no different with you.

Either we're all failing to effectively make a point, or you're failing to really comprehend the message. Or a combination of both.

You can continue to disagree with everyone, but it doesn't change the potentially unsafe condition with your firearm and / or ammo.

Please, rather than quickly pouncing on your keyboard to respond, take some time and think about what's going on. If this were happening to a family member or close friend, ask yourself how you would advise them going forward.

[lilharcher]

Heaven forbid you give the guy some safety advice.......wow.

[KentuckyBuddha]

Nice post Drifter, it really Boyle's down to that. It's the Law. : D

Folk are not trying to scam you out of getting low end 260 Rem range performance out of a grendel. They just don't want you to get hurt. It is pretty basic physics and engineering. There is no way that can be safe with that much pressure using that metallurgy to contain and shape the explosion that results in a pill leaving the barrel that fast. Full stop. Eventually something will have to give. It is just a question of how.

[bwaites]

XCountryRider,

Significantly higher than normal velocities ONLY can occur under 3 circumstances:

1) Pressure is higher than expected.

2) Barrel length is longer than expected.

3) Chronograph readings are incorrect.

There are no barrels that can create higher velocities than other barrels created in the same manner, at least those of equal length and within acceptable manufacturing tolerance. I have two Satern 5R barrels, my readings are within normal variation, as are the VAST majority of peoples readings using Satern and Liberty barrels, as many have pointed out.

Therefore, one of the 3 variables above must be at work. Since 2 and 3 are not dangerous, everyone is concerned about 1.

We have members here who can model that velocity and work back, using computer programs, to give us an idea of what kind of pressure those programs will predict. I've asked one of them to do so.

There are chambering and manufacturing variables that can affect velocity, but achieving 100 FPS of extra velocity on the upper end of a load takes a lot! Consider that a 6.5 Creedmoor shoots a 123 at only about 2700 FPS using 6-10 more grains of powder and creating 4000-10000 more pounds of pressure, depending on the powder.

We don't want any faces blown up. The guys who wrote the Grendel reloading book spent A LOT of time talking to Bill Alexander, Hodgdon, Western Powders, etc. making sure the data was both good and safe. When they see velocities that don't make sense, they get nervous, as do I.

We like our members, we don't want anyone hurt!

[XcountryRider]

No ones Ar stoner barrels are blowing up and they aren't made in sweat shops on the PI.