Grendel AR Bolt.......Anyone.....?

[pburr]

I have had an order with Alex Arms since the beginning of the year for a Grendel bolt and still nothing. I have a Krieger barrel that is ready for headspacing and would really like to match it to a bolt.

Does anyone know where I can pick up a good NEW bolt?

[ricsmall]

Try les Baer. They have them often, if they don't, they usually get them fairly quick. Well, relative to everyone else they get them quick.

[Keep The Change]

Agreed. Try to get a Les Bauer 264 LBC bolt. I picked one up while my AAbolt is backordered

[Kohoki]

@Pburr

Whats that "backorder-since beginning of the year" thing? Is more than 7 months waiting acceptable?? What does AA say to the situation?

[bwaites]

Grendel bolts are always a special run by the boltmaker. AA tries to anticipate how many they need for rifles and uppers , then what they might sell apart from that, and orders based on that estimate. With the huge supply issues that hit last winter, and with the lead time on manufacturing, I'm sure that the special items like bolts will be a very slow process to get back to normal stocks. You can only stick your neck out so far when ordering parts, and any manufacturer would be silly to try to stock up enough ahead of time for something like we saw happen.

Small manufacturers often complain that they are really just a parts storage business that happens to build something from the parts as it is. They have to order in much larger quantities than build numbers justify, and then sit on parts for a long time using them up. Sitting on those parts seriously impacts cash available. Its not like a Colt or a Remington, where they are big enough to demand delivery of 1000 bolts every 3 days, and they build 1000 rifles from the parts.

[Kohoki]

@bwaites

But don´t you think that if a company is in a situation that their customers have to wait a year and longer for ordered parts you have to change something. In that case the anticipation was wrong and has to be corrected asap. An AR bolt is not a very complex part, any machine shop with driven toolholders turning machines can manufacture that cost effectively.

I am working in the industrial goods industry near Stuttgart, Germany (Porsche & Mercedes Benz are quite in our neighborhood) and the company I am working for is buying a lot of machined products. If some of our suppliers would tell us that a standard product would have a delivery time more than 6 weeks it would be very hard (if not impossible) for the supplier to get an order the next time.
As far as I can rely on my experience, I think it would be possible to manufacture 1000 Grendel bolts and extractors in less than 6 Weeks (including hardening, surface coating and assembly) for about 15-25$ per piece.

But the real annoying thing is not their lot size policy, it is AAs website on which you can read the following statement (in case the shop website is working, right now it isn´t):

"At this time we are not able to provide estimated delivery dates due to the extremely high volume of orders we are receiving and processing every day.
All items are subject to back-order."

This is simply not acceptible because it tells you these things:

1. We do not have a clue how to manage the amounts of orders we are getting
2. We do not change our manufacturing policy/amounts of products produced per week to handle the high volume of orders we are getting.
3. We do want any business possible, regardless of delivery time, our customers will have to wait and we won´t tell them how long

[bwaites]

@bwaites

But don´t you think that if a company is in a situation that their customers have to wait a year and longer for ordered parts you have to change something. In that case the anticipation was wrong and has to be corrected asap. An AR bolt is not a very complex part, any machine shop with driven toolholders turning machines can manufacture that cost effectively.

I am working in the industrial goods industry near Stuttgart, Germany (Porsche & Mercedes Benz are quite in our neighborhood) and the company I am working for is buying a lot of machined products. If some of our suppliers would tell us that a standard product would have a delivery time more than 6 weeks it would be very hard (if not impossible) for the supplier to get an order the next time.
As far as I can rely on my experience, I think it would be possible to manufacture 1000 Grendel bolts and extractors in less than 6 Weeks (including hardening, surface coating and assembly) for about 15-25$ per piece.

But the real annoying thing is not their lot size policy, it is AAs website on which you can read the following statement (in case the shop website is working, right now it isn´t):

"At this time we are not able to provide estimated delivery dates due to the extremely high volume of orders we are receiving and processing every day.
All items are subject to back-order."

This is simply not acceptible because it tells you these things:

1. We do not have a clue how to manage the amounts of orders we are getting
2. We do not change our manufacturing policy/amounts of products produced per week to handle the high volume of orders we are getting.
3. We do want any business possible, regardless of delivery time, our customers will have to wait and we won´t tell them how long

Kohoki,

The simple problem is cash flow. AA is a very small company in relation to the industry as a whole. While making bolts may not seem like a particularly difficult process, there are only so many places that do it. AA simply can't order the quantities that others can, and consequently, they are subject to the whims of manufacturers who take larger orders.

Its not a matter of WANTING, its a matter of simply not being able to get parts fast enough because of the bottlenecks in the industry. 2 months ago people were paying $300-500 for a bolt carrier group for a 5.56 AR, today you can buy complete 5.56 AR's for $800.

The supply is catching up to the demand, and I suspect that AA will soon do the same, but they will take longer because of their size. They are not the only company in this situation. Magpul is catching up, but they couldn't predict when they would have mags again just a few months ago. Much bigger company than AA.

I know that AA has had some parts on order for MANY months and they simply can't get them. They get promises, but no follow through. Small manufacturers are subject to a lot of that.

Finally, this is the gun industry in America. People wait 5 years for some guns. Some 1911 gunsmiths are backordered 20 years! Some of the target pistol specialists are simply saying "If your name is on the list, and I don't die, you'll eventually get your pistol."

AA is not really a parts supplier, they are a rifle manufacturer. They really DON'T want to be in the parts business. They have been because no one else did it. But other places can order Grendel parts, like Midway, etc. They have stocked barrels and barrel/bolt combos, but even they can't seem to source enough of those parts to keep them in stock, and they are hundreds of times bigger than AA!

It will get better, but it will take time.

[Kohoki]

@bwaites

Thank you very much for the explanation, I didn´t knew that the situation is this bad in the US. Furthermore I am not angry about them due to long delivery times, it´s more that they don´t tell the customer what delivery times to expect. They leave the customer with the statement: "All products subject to backorder."
They don´t tell potential customers the delivery time because of the potential loss of customers as soon as they tell them:

"All products subject to backorder, it can take up to a year and more until we process your order."

One fundamental in industrial economics is the triangle of: Quality - Schedule - Cost, A manufacturer/seller has to meet the customers expectations in all three segments in order to be successful on the market, otherwise another manufacturer will take over the business. It is possible to focus on two segments and have a compromise at the remaining. Ignoring the remaining, in this case AA ignores the need of the customer to know/estimate a date of delivery, results in unsatisfied or requires frugal customers.

I am not writing this to offend AA, I am just seeing analogies to the German weapon manufacturer market. In both of our countries you need to be a very very patient customer when you ordered something from a gunsmith!

[bwaites]

Kohoki, the easiest way for me to answer is inserting answers directly after your comments. I've done it in bold red so it is easy to figure out.

@bwaites

Thank you very much for the explanation, I didn´t knew that the situation is this bad in the US. Furthermore I am not angry about them due to long delivery times, it´s more that they don´t tell the customer what delivery times to expect. They leave the customer with the statement: "All products subject to backorder."
They don´t tell potential customers the delivery time because of the potential loss of customers as soon as they tell them:

"All products subject to backorder, it can take up to a year and more until we process your order."

In the past, AA would give lead times and probable delivery times, and almost invariably they were criticized because those times were often postponed because their supplier wouldn't get parts to them on time. AA was having to constantly deal with customers who would say, "but you said 8 weeks!" and then it would take twice that. Not because AA didn't want to ship the part, but because they simply couldn't control delivery times from the supplier. The AR market is so hot that suppliers don't have to worry very much about selling stuff if someone cancels an order because it was late, they have lots of people waiting in line to buy it. Since the only thing unique to the Grendel and Beowulf are the barrels and bolts, all the other pieces are in demand from lots of other places. The .17 HMR uses all the same exterior pieces, too, so even it is affected. If you can't get forearms, or latch pins, or door springs, etc. you can't build and ship an upper. Because the relative volume of barrels and bolts is low compared to 5.56, they are always on the back burner in comparison.

One fundamental in industrial economics is the triangle of: Quality - Schedule - Cost, A manufacturer/seller has to meet the customers expectations in all three segments in order to be successful on the market, otherwise another manufacturer will take over the business. It is possible to focus on two segments and have a compromise at the remaining. Ignoring the remaining, in this case AA ignores the need of the customer to know/estimate a date of delivery, results in unsatisfied or requires frugal customers.

I certainly agree. Unfortunately, since the 2nd election of Barack Obama, the American public has gone on a gun buying and ammunition buying spree that is completely unprecedented. No one predicted it would be like this, and no one was prepared for it. There are still critical shortages of some types of ammunition, with .22 long rifle essentially non-existant on the shelves. In the last month we have begun to see rifles and pistols start to catch up, but parts for self builders are still rare. I have parts to build two more rifles, but haven't found lower parts kits (or upper parts kits for that matter!) at a price that isn't gouging. They are starting to show up, though, which was not the case even six weeks ago. At NO time in the past has ammunition been in such short supply. No one can remember not being able to walk into any outdoors store and not be able to buy .22 long rifle. 5.56, 9mm, .45 and .308 are only marginally better. Those calibers have started to show up in the last 4-6 weeks, but .22LR is still lost.

AA is in the same boat. In normal times, they would be roundly criticized, but ALL the boutique manufacturers are in the same situation, so people wait and wait, happy that they are at least on the list!


I am not writing this to offend AA, I am just seeing analogies to the German weapon manufacturer market. In both of our countries you need to be a very very patient customer when you ordered something from a gunsmith!

[cory]

Bwaites if AA is at the mercy of so many different manufacturers why not start manufacturing some of this stuff in house, like bolts.

I'm sure you've read it inside and out, but I'm going to reference the AA lead times thread.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...Lead-Times

With a 12 month backlog, they've got enough orders on the books to recoup the cost in equipment, before they get their current orders out the door. To be honest I'm surprised Bill would leave the supply of such a critical and relatively simple components to vendors completely out of his control.

[bwaites]

Bwaites if AA is at the mercy of so many different manufacturers why not start manufacturing some of this stuff in house, like bolts.

I'm sure you've read it inside and out, but I'm going to reference the AA lead times thread.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...Lead-Times

With a 12 month backlog, they've got enough orders on the books to recoup the cost in equipment, before they get their current orders out the door. To be honest I'm surprised Bill would leave the supply of such a critical and relatively simple components to vendors completely out of his control.

Bill would love to do everything in house, I know! My experience with startups of machining companies is very limited, but from what I know, its not something you just jump into. Machining bolts, carriers, etc. requires a lot of precision, and from what I understand, those machines only make money if you can keep them running 24/7. I know companies rent time on them for some projects, and I'm sure Bill has considered a lot of options over the past few months. He has started doing barrels in house, but expanding to more and more employees is not a simple task in the best of times, and with a clear outlook. Right now arms manufacturing is an iffy business, and most of the players are completely unwilling to add capacity in a market that might be snatched away with an executive order! AA is in that same boat, willing to expand what they do in house, but only slowly and carefully.

If you've got an investor ready to pony up several million dollars of capital to make the expansion, I'm sure that I can arrange to have Bill and the other necessary people at AA sit down with you and the investor!

[Tedward]

Les Baer has bolts but are waiting on extractors. They said another week or three a week or so ago so maybe soon they will have some soon. They work great and just keep checking. AA Bolts are nothing special and just make you wait because they can. CSS shows in stock and they replied to my request and said in stock but will only sell me two. I didn't order any because they also say Grendel Barrels in stock and not delivering. So give me money and wait. Done with that so if you order one and receive it, post the info. Tactical Ammunition is another culprit of "in stock" but no delivery, but better time of delivering than AA. AA is the worst for delivering anything.

Keep shopping....Keep updating your fellow Grendelers.....

[cory]

The Les Baer bolts aren't true Grendel Bolts, or are they?

[Keep The Change]

Oh oh here we go.
Theyn are not the same as what AA make. Bill has done some different profiling on the lug/lugs and they have a face depth of 0.136 +/- some tolerance. Les Baer bolts have a depth of 0.134 +/- tolerance. They will work fine.

[Kohoki]

@Cory

That lead times are devastating news! I am thinking about writing them and offering my help in manufacturing bolts and extractors.

[bwaites]

Les Baer has always used Grendel Bolts. He may not be using the hard use bolts, but they are identical to the bolts that AA has used. We pulled the bolt carrier from a Les Baer rifle and compared it to my standard bolt a few years ago and it was identical. That .002 is just manufacturing tolerance.

The bolts were twins, so much so that I would have sworn they came off the same machine, and for all I know, they did. Every measurement we could do was the same, including face depth the best we could tell.

[pburr]

Thanks for the info everyone. I dont really care if it is an AA or LB bolt. I already have a Grendel based on a LB barrel with BCG as well. I was just wondering if anyone else had similar issues or if it was just my order! Recieved this response from AA:

"
We will fill the orders when the product becomes available.

Thanks,

Stephanie Peavy
Alexander Arms®

Alexander Industries Inc.
US Army, Radford Arsenal
PO Box 1
Radford, VA 24143
Phone- (540) 639-8356
Fax- (540) 639-8353
"

I went with AA because I could order online....unlike LB, but under the circumstances, Im going to have to give them a call......what the hell, so I'll wind up with 2 bolts in the end...!!!

[jurassic]

I have an LBC stripped bolt, they don't have the parts needed to assemble them
Right now. Not sure if they even have stripped bolts anymore.

[Tedward]

CSS say they have them in stock and sent me an e-mail stating I could only order 2. I didn't order them as i don't really need them to pay another $65 each and wait. So if you want to order one or 2 and let us know if you get them, please do. I have mine and a spare so till there avalible from LBC, I won't order any more. LBC said they had them in stock in May, I ordered 2 and they came in 3 days. That is the only company I'll do business with. Mine are on BO with AA but no payment made till they are being shipped. It may be 12 to 24 months but the day will come when they say they are ready to ship...then I'll pay and just hold onto them for my Grendel or Beowulfs...

[Tedward]

Les Baer has always used Grendel Bolts. He may not be using the hard use bolts, but they are identical to the bolts that AA has used. We pulled the bolt carrier from a Les Baer rifle and compared it to my standard bolt a few years ago and it was identical. That .002 is just manufacturing tolerance.

The bolts were twins, so much so that I would have sworn they came off the same machine, and for all I know, they did. Every measurement we could do was the same, including face depth the best we could tell.

I disagree with the twins. I have 5 different manufactures of 6.5 bolts. The AA has a fish hook milling under the lugs, so does my AR Stoner. They are all close in appearance but that is the only difference. It isn't a structural difference but a "noticeable" difference. Also the lip on the bolt face is different. The LBC has less flat surface than any other manufacture. Again nothing with bolt face depth but appearance is different.[ATTACH=CONFIG]3657[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]3658[/ATTACH] Far left is AA and the used one on far right is AR-Stoner. Second from the end on the right and used is my LBC, I used that on my Beowulf and it works great. Notice how thin the flat surface is, the edge is angled more on the LBC leaving less flat surface rather than squared off like all the others.