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What the media is NOT reporting about the shootings. Is the problem really meds?
#1
http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/the-giant-gap...reporting/

"

•Columbine mass-killer Eric Harris was taking Luvox – like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, Effexor and many others, a modern and widely prescribed type of antidepressant drug called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, or SSRIs. Harris and fellow student Dylan Klebold went on a hellish school shooting rampage in 1999 during which they killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 24 others before turning their guns on themselves.Luvox manufacturer Solvay Pharmaceuticals concedes that during short-term controlled clinical trials, 4 percent of children and youth taking Luvox – that’s 1 in 25 – developed mania, a dangerous and violence-prone mental derangement characterized by extreme excitement and delusion.
•Patrick Purdy went on a schoolyard shooting rampage in Stockton, Calif., in 1989, which became the catalyst for the original legislative frenzy to ban “semiautomatic assault weapons” in California and the nation. The 25-year-old Purdy, who murdered five children and wounded 30, had been on Amitriptyline, an antidepressant, as well as the antipsychotic drug Thorazine.
•Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents in 1998 and the next day went to his school, Thurston High in Springfield, Ore., and opened fire on his classmates, killing two and wounding 22 others. He had been prescribed both Prozac and Ritalin.
•In 1988, 31-year-old Laurie Dann went on a shooting rampage in a second-grade classroom in Winnetka, Ill., killing one child and wounding six. She had been taking the antidepressant Anafranil as well as Lithium, long used to treat mania.
•In Paducah, Ky., in late 1997, 14-year-old Michael Carneal, son of a prominent attorney, traveled to Heath High School and started shooting students in a prayer meeting taking place in the school’s lobby, killing three and leaving another paralyzed. Carneal reportedly was on Ritalin.
•In 2005, 16-year-old Native American Jeff Weise, living on Minnesota’s Red Lake Indian Reservation, shot and killed nine people and wounded five others before killing himself. Weise had been taking Prozac.
•In another famous case, 47-year-old Joseph T. Wesbecker, just a month after he began taking Prozac in 1989, shot 20 workers at Standard Gravure Corp. in Louisville, Ky., killing nine. Prozac-maker Eli Lilly later settled a lawsuit brought by survivors.
•Kurt Danysh, 18, shot his own father to death in 1996, a little more than two weeks after starting on Prozac. Danysh’s description of own his mental-emotional state at the time of the murder is chilling: “I didn’t realize I did it until after it was done,” Danysh said. “This might sound weird, but it felt like I had no control of what I was doing, like I was left there just holding a gun.”
•John Hinckley, age 25, took four Valium two hours before shooting and almost killing President Ronald Reagan in 1981. In the assassination attempt, Hinckley also wounded press secretary James Brady, Secret Service agent Timothy McCarthy and policeman Thomas Delahanty.
•Andrea Yates, in one of the most heartrending crimes in modern history, drowned all five of her children – aged 7 years down to 6 months – in a bathtub. Insisting inner voices commanded her to kill her children, she had become increasingly psychotic over the course of several years. At her 2006 murder re-trial (after a 2002 guilty verdict was overturned on appeal), Yates’ longtime friend Debbie Holmes testified: “She asked me if I thought Satan could read her mind and if I believed in demon possession.” And Dr. George Ringholz, after evaluating Yates for two days, recounted an experience she had after the birth of her first child: “What she described was feeling a presence … Satan … telling her to take a knife and stab her son Noah,” Ringholz said, adding that Yates’ delusion at the time of the bathtub murders was not only that she had to kill her children to save them, but that Satan had entered her and that she had to be executed in order to kill Satan.Yates had been taking the antidepressant Effexor. In November 2005, more than four years after Yates drowned her children, Effexor manufacturer Wyeth Pharmaceuticals quietly added “homicidal ideation” to the drug’s list of “rare adverse events.” The Medical Accountability Network, a private nonprofit focused on medical ethics issues, publicly criticized Wyeth, saying Effexor’s “homicidal ideation” risk wasn’t well-publicized and that Wyeth failed to send letters to doctors or issue warning labels announcing the change.And what exactly does “rare” mean in the phrase “rare adverse events”? The FDA defines it as occurring in less than one in 1,000 people. But since that same year 19.2 million prescriptions for Effexor were filled in the U.S., statistically that means thousands of Americans might experience “homicidal ideation” – murderous thoughts – as a result of taking just this one brand of antidepressant drug.Effexor is Wyeth’s best-selling drug, by the way, which in one recent year brought in over $3 billion in sales, accounting for almost a fifth of the company’s annual revenues.
•One more case is instructive, that of 12-year-old Christopher Pittman, who struggled in court to explain why he murdered his grandparents, who had provided the only love and stability he’d ever known in his turbulent life. “When I was lying in my bed that night,” he testified, “I couldn’t sleep because my voice in my head kept echoing through my mind telling me to kill them.” Christopher had been angry with his grandfather, who had disciplined him earlier that day for hurting another student during a fight on the school bus. So later that night, he shot both of his grandparents in the head with a .410 shotgun as they slept and then burned down their South Carolina home, where he had lived with them.”I got up, got the gun, and I went upstairs and I pulled the trigger,” he recalled. “Through the whole thing, it was like watching your favorite TV show. You know what is going to happen, but you can’t do anything to stop it.”Pittman’s lawyers would later argue that the boy had been a victim of “involuntary intoxication,” since his doctors had him taking the antidepressants Paxil and Zoloft just prior to the murders.Paxil’s known “adverse drug reactions” – according to the drug’s FDA-approved label – include “mania,” “insomnia,” “anxiety,” “agitation,” “confusion,” “amnesia,” “depression,” “paranoid reaction,” “psychosis,” “hostility,” “delirium,” “hallucinations,” “abnormal thinking,” “depersonalization” and “lack of emotion,” among others.The preceding examples are only a few of the best-known offenders who had been taking prescribed psychiatric drugs before committing their violent crimes – there are many others. "


This is where the real debate should go
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#2
That's why I refuse to go to doctor. And if I was forced to I damn sure wouldn't take any of their snake oil. Just to be one if their Ginny pigs.
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#3
Damn, good find.
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#4
Guys,

People with psychiatric issues need treatment. The fact that a TINY minority of those people do not respond as hoped to the medications and carry out some tragic plan does not equate with the medication being the issue anymore than the fact that you filling up your car with gasoline creates accidents!

Correlation does not equal causation!

For instance, did you know that the cause of Autism is the result of increased organic vegetables in the American diet?

[Image: causeforautism.png]

OF course, the real cause of Autism is completely unknown, but if you use data that correlates, it would appear that the cause is the increased use of organic vegetables!

Using another analogy, the reasoning that because these people were on medications to treat psychiatric disorders they then created these tragic scenarios is a bit like blaming a death from cancer on chemotherapy.

These people were psychiatrically unstable, thats why they were on meds.
”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt
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#5
Nice post bwaites.

Attribution error drives me nuts too. Well amongst other things. While SSRI's are certainly not a panacea and even do no good except in the most severely depressed, they most certainly are not causal in causing autism (Seligman, 2012; Baron-Cohen 2008).

I almost went apoplectic the other day when a big name tv doctor made comments that clearly suggested he did not or didn't care to speak as though he understand the difference in no evidence of disease (NED) and evidence of no disease...which is devastatingly foolish.

Well done sir, I think you mentioned you are a Physician yourself in another post. I reckon your patients are less at risk to iatragenic errors than most. My doctor isn't that savvy about reasoning or statistics but she is fabulously emotionally intelligent which is also rare and wonderful. Forced to choose between the two I am not sure what I would pick. lol
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#6
Of course you are correct
A couple of things

First
There is a very large study that was done in the UK that links Autism to tylenol
Not gotten much press

As to the OP

I may taken the conversation in a direction other than I wanted

It was meant more to show that mental issues are a big part of mass murders


Guns were only a tool of the ill

Marc
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#7
Thank you both.

The treatment of mental illness in America, (and Europe, and everywhere else for that matter), is perhaps the single greatest cause for shame amongst medical scientists today.

We simply do a lousy job under the best of circumstances, and we are worse than lousy all the rest of the time.

We are understaffed with appropriately trained people at every level, the system does not adequately compensate those who provide the care, and we lack any sophisticated way of isolating those at high risk for offense.

Because we decided more than 5 decades ago to follow the "least restrictive" treatment regimen, we have created a scenario where almost nothing CAN be done until someone wreaks havoc, then we cry, "Someone should have done something!"

Unless you are incarcerated in a mental health institution because of criminal insanity, it is virtually impossible to compel someone to undergo treatment. Treating mentally ill people requires CONSTANT care, and a single breach of consistency in that care can create a disaster like we saw last month.

Meds are not the answer, but they can be a part of it. All the rest is very complex, and our health care system does not like complexity when it comes to mental illness!

I hesitate to point this out, but virtually every single mass shooter is a male aged 16-40, with a few older males thrown in. Can anyone remember a female mass shooter? Maybe the answer is to restrict males from having firearms! Smile (I kid, I kid!)
”You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live.” - John Galt
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#8
Without reading all that. Drugs they were on. Both sandyhook and the movie theatre shooters were on physcotropic drugs.
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#9
Nailed it
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#10
What is the P-value of that study in the UK? Might be a good reason most folk have not heard of it. Tylenol has been popular since the 50's, that is a big ol' sample size of folks that were exposed before the autism boom, where so many more were diagnosed with it. It would be odd to have a fat tail all of a sudden 50-60 years on after it came out if that was a cause no?

I know the intent was that the conversation would go a different way...but it is a far more complicated issue that the correlations you cite would indicate. No insult intended bub! : )

We are of one mind that guns are only a tool. But, the mentally ill are far more likely to be victims than to commit violent acts. All the best man.

kb

There was a lag in when I posted to the OP and others posted in the middle. It was he I was addressing.


Bronz, all of those shooters had eaten at McDonald's I would wager as well...it just don't mean it was the reason they did it.
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#11
Nice-BWAITES,, & RUSHMC-we need to stay vigilant on the mental health issues in the USA- it will,-can-help many, and save lives, pain and money-long term. Guns do not go bang by themselves. Mental health reform should be at the top of the Heap=that The Pres. has to deal with, in the USA-foreign matters can take a rest for 1 day.
Bothering the law abiding citizens here-hey! we pay his salary!
Bill, the answer may lie in knowledge-know thy neighbor=doesn;t mean rat him out-yet--if you see odd behavior, etc.= It may be time to REALLY BE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH, NIGHT OUT, ETC> GET to know ALL OF YOUR people on YOUR STREET! ASK about any kids, hidden from sight, basement refugees? Talk to all the kids in your n. hood, they will tell who is acting strangely.
Let's push on this.These kids age-maybe never quite grow up-then we see the parental mistakes made along the way--should have-meant to get him into a facility of help-care.=etc. Suddenly, another( kill as many as I can as a twisted message-then suicide myself scenario). Ironically-back in the 60's-early 70's- the start of-the AR -15 being sold to civvies. =not too many shootings then, like this year. Society is losing it's grip -the screens are the problem too. I don't watch tv as much as I used to-phew!
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