6.5 Grendel Preferred Loads

[leopard6.5]

Bob and others: I don't know if this is the proper place to bring this up so feel free to move it as necessary.

In the current issue of Guns & Ammo's "Book of the AR-15"( on newstands as of 10-2-2012) they have a write-up on page 16 in the Roundtable Round-up article about
Hornady introducing a new bullet- 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain SST.
I can't tell if it will just be offered as a separate bullet or also as loaded ammo but it seems to be their answer for hunters that don't think the 123 gr. A-Max should be used for hunting.

Does anyone have any further info on this as far as availability and whether there will be loaded factory ammo.

Maybe this should be one of the bullets used in your tests once it becomes available.

Lee

[LR1955]

I don't know about that Gene, in the .223, the Sierra 77 SMK is not VLD and is by far the most popular High Power bullet out there. Black Hills, Atlanta Arms and Federal Gold Medal Match loads use it and they sell very strong. Also Hornady 75 BTHP, same story, not VLD and both the bullet and factory loads using it go by the millions. The reason is, they shoot out of most guns really well. That's what I'm looking for here, but for the Grendel. In my guns the 123 A-Max shoots better than the 120 SMK, however, that doesn't mean it does in most guns.
Do you have a 120 SMK load that you would propose that we include in this test?
Bob

Bob:

I have a couple of loads. 28 - 29 grains of TAC, 29 - 30.5 grains of 2520, 28 - 29 grains of 8208 XBR. Pick a powder that is intended for the bullet and case and use a mid to high end load. Something that gets powder between the middle of the shoulder and the base of the neck. CCI-450 primers and standard OAL.

Other bullets may shoot better but my bet is you won't find any that will shoot as well over such a wide variety of powders, charges, primers, and chambers.

LR1955

[rickOshay]

Assume we stick with commercial Hornady case length and COL for AMAX 123s?

[stokesrj]

Assume we stick with commercial Hornady case length and COL for AMAX 123s?

Yes, Hornady loads the 123 A-Max to 2.250 so that is what I suggest as a standard. I'm well aware that some of the loads are longer, 2.265 or so but I want to weed out jump sensitive ogive designs and find one that works well with longer jumps, I think that is a key attribute to finding loads that work well in many rifles.

Bob

[stokesrj]

Bob and others: I don't know if this is the proper place to bring this up so feel free to move it as necessary.

In the current issue of Guns & Ammo's "Book of the AR-15"( on newstands as of 10-2-2012) they have a write-up on page 16 in the Roundtable Round-up article about
Hornady introducing a new bullet- 6.5mm Grendel 123 grain SST.
I can't tell if it will just be offered as a separate bullet or also as loaded ammo but it seems to be their answer for hunters that don't think the 123 gr. A-Max should be used for hunting.

Does anyone have any further info on this as far as availability and whether there will be loaded factory ammo.

Maybe this should be one of the bullets used in your tests once it becomes available.Lee

The 129SST is a bullet that has been around awhile, I've used them for 10 years or more, so I suspect they are aluding to a new Horady factory load. I have one rifle that lovesthis bullet and another that can't stand it. Based on my experiences with it, I don't think it is a candidate because of the widely varying results, from sub MOA to 3-5 MOA. I think it is best used as a hunting bullet by those who try it and find it to be accurate in that specific rifle.

[leopard6.5]

Hi Bob: In the article they were talking about a 123 gr. SST not the 129 gr. SST.

Do you think that would make much of a difference?

Lee

[stokesrj]

Yes, if it is designed with the same ogive as the 123 A-Max that could be a huge improvement. Strange, when I discussed this with them earlier this week and described what I was after they didn't mention a 123 SST and I would have expected them to. This may be worth following up.
Thanks for bringing it to my attention I read it as 129SST.
Bob

[LRRPF52]

I just got back from being at the range all day. I took the 123gr AMAX Hornady box ammo, and some 10-round batches of ladder tests with 129gr SST on top of CFE. I also shot some Precision Firearms 123gr Lapua Moly Scenar box ammo, which I love.

I did all my shooting at 200yds after confirming my zero at 50yds with 3 rounds. 123gr AMAX did great from my 16" AA button ER Shaw pipe. I got one 1.695" 4-round group at 200, and the rest were just over 2", with one rapid-fire group at 3.4", so I basically confirmed that the little 16" carbine is a great, lightweight hunting platform that will put the bullet on the money in the vital zone on-command, even when you throttle-up on the trigger.

That's funny about the 123gr SST because I was thinking, they need to make a 123gr SST for the Grendel. The 129gr SST eats too much case capacity, even loaded at 2.300".

My ladder tests with the 129 SST didn't show anything spectacular or striking to me, but the groups weren't terrible either. I got one at 4". one at 4.75", and one at 5.6". I think the 4" group was the heavier charges of 29.5gr-30.3gr. 29.9, 30.1, and 30.3gr were all compressed, even at 2.290" COAL.

My opinion on the 129gr SST is that it likes speed, so it will likely end up being loaded for my .260 Rem, which is a more appropriate case capacity for the 129gr SST profile all day long. I'll sling it at around 2800fps from the AR10 and use it as a target bullet, since I bought 600 of them.

[LR1955]

Here is what I'm thinking at this point. I would like us to settle on a handfull of candidate loads, maybe five or six. Define these loads in detail, and then as many of us as are willing agree to test them all and report in a standard format the results. RickOshay has volunteered to collect and format this data.

I realize not everyone has a chronograph, or even the facilities to conduct a controlled test, but many of us do. These tests will cost money, to do it right is probably more than a hundred bucks each unless we have all the components laying around. But if you are like me your going to be shooting something anyway and it might as well be a coordinated effort to discover what works best.

So far, it appears we have the following candidates;
1. Hornady 123 A-Max factory load
2. 100 A-Max Bwild load, 34 grains CFE223
3. 108 Scenar to be proposed by Bill
4. 120 SMK to be proposed by Gene
5. 123 A-Max 28.5 grains IMR8208XBR
6. Perhaps a 123A-max factory duplicate if I or we can figure out what that would be.

Once these tests are defined fully, it would be wise to back off and work up to each load to be safe. I know that some have reported high pressure signs on loads that are safe in my rifles. So it may not be possible to test these by simply loading and firing the matrix. But that in itself could be useful information.

What are the rest of you thinking? Is there a load that you think is a stronger candidate than the ones I have listed?

Bob

Bob:

OK -- with the 120 Sierra go with 30 grains of 2520 or 28 1/2 grains of 8208 XBR, CCI 450 and what Alexander states is his oal. Can't remember it off hand.

If someone shoots either of these two loads through a variety of barrels and barrel lengths from their little 14" carbines through 28 inch rifles; from the ER Shaws of the world through the Kriegers; polyginal or not; DI or gas piston system; at 200, 300 and 500yards which I believe represents about 99% of all shooters in terms of ranges; over a variety of environmental conditions; my bet is that either of these loads using the 120 Sierra will be more consistently accurate any other bullet / ammo combination fired from a gas blaster.

The problem will be you stating a metric from which one can make a rational and quantitative assessment. We are talking 'better' in terms of distance, barrels, rifling types, and environmental conditions.

LR1955

[stokesrj]

Bob:

OK -- with the 120 Sierra go with 30 grains of 2520 or 28 1/2 grains of 8208 XBR, CCI 450 and what Alexander states is his oal. Can't remember it off hand.
LR1955

The AA data is 2.220 COL

Quantitative is relative to the Hornady 123 A-Max factory load. That should equalize enviornmental conditions.

I don't see a problem with this in the High Power community, nearly evryone gets the same results with the 77 grain Sierra Match King, nearly evryone gets .5 -1.25MOA with Black Hills, Alanta Arms, or Federal Gold Medal Match or Hornady 75 BTHP Factory loads or equivalent handloads. Provided, they can shoot, no chrome bores, no slow twist, 1:8 or faster, doesn't matter 16" or 28".

Bob

[LR1955]

The AA data is 2.220 COL

Quantitative is relative to the Hornady 123 A-Max factory load. That should equalize enviornmental conditions.

I don't see a problem with this in the High Power community, nearly evryone gets the same results with the 77 grain Sierra Match King, nearly evryone gets .5 -1.25MOA with Black Hills, Alanta Arms, or Federal Gold Medal Match or Hornady 75 BTHP Factory loads or equivalent handloads. Provided, they can shoot, no chrome bores, no slow twist, 1:8 or faster, doesn't matter 16" or 28".

Bob

Bob:

Am ready to go.

Please send me 200 rounds of Hornady 123 A-Max cartridges. He, he, he.

Avoiding opinions is the key to success here.

So, what variables and factors are we supposed to use in our evaluation and as importantly, what statistic should be used?

LR1955

[stokesrj]

Bob:

Am ready to go.

Please send me 200 rounds of Hornady 123 A-Max cartridges. He, he, he.

Avoiding opinions is the key to success here.

So, what variables and factors are we supposed to use in our evaluation and as importantly, what statistic should be used?

LR1955

Okay, I'll email you 200 rounds
Bob

[bobke]

Kind of curious why Nosler 100/120 gr Ballistic Tips haven't shown up on the possibles list. Have had some very good results with TAC and 8208, as well as others I've seen post here, but they are pricey relative to 123 Amax. Other factor I seem to remember is that whatever you shoot behind Noslers will never group as well as the Noslers because of some softer copper wash left behind by the BT's. Any substance to same?

[bwaites]

I've shot tiny groups with the Noslers, but they are spendy....close to the same cost for 50 as for 100 of the Hornady's. They also lose on BC, especially beyond 300.

The problem is that they aren't cost effective for high volume shooting.

[PA_Allen]

Kind of curious why Nosler 100/120 gr Ballistic Tips haven't shown up on the possibles list. Have had some very good results with TAC and 8208, as well as others I've seen post here, but they are pricey relative to 123 Amax. Other factor I seem to remember is that whatever you shoot behind Noslers will never group as well as the Noslers because of some softer copper wash left behind by the BT's. Any substance to same?

I have been considering suggesting 30 gr of H335 or 8208 behind the 100 NBT or 100 TTSX as a lighter bullet "preferred load" that should perform well in a variety of rifles. I know several on this forum have found these loads to be sucessful. Granted you will loose the wind battle compared to the 120 gr class bullets, but they perform well out to at least 300-400 yds, which likely covers 95% of hunter's needs. I'm not sure the cost of the bullet should disqualify it from consideration. Cost is a factor for competition where you may be shooting thousands of rounds, but it is not as big of a factor for the average hunter/plinker.
Also, I have not had any trouble shooting other bullets after Noslers...I'm sure it just depends on you individual barrel's personality.
Thanks Bob for this thread. I think we will all learn a lot.
Best,
PA

[stokesrj]

Actually I was just waiting for some one to suggest the Nosler BT's I've had very good results with the 100 NBT and 120 NBT but that was long ago and I have misplaced my data. So, if I were to add these to our list, what specific loads would you propose?
Bob

[bobke]

From memory, without logs in front of me, 29.5 TAC with 100 gr BT and 28.0 8208 were both very good. Will submit chrono data when I can catch up to my records, which are at an alternate location. They stick with me because of bug hole like accuracy. Lapua brass, RP 7 1/2 primers, trimmed 1.515, seated just short of lands.

[PA_Allen]

Actually I was just waiting for some one to suggest the Nosler BT's I've had very good results with the 100 NBT and 120 NBT but that was long ago and I have misplaced my data. So, if I were to add these to our list, what specific loads would you propose?
Bob

Bob,
I would suggest the following.
Lapua or Hornady Brass and Rem 7.5 primers. Velocitiy listed for 20" LW barrel.

120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip – Overall Cartridge length = 2.225”

XBR 8208
28.0 gr – 2515fps,

100 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip – Overall Cartridge length = 2.225”

XBR 8208
30.0 gr – 2760 fps, SD 12.2, ES. 30.6

Or if you like ball powder

H335
30.0 gr – 2775 fps

These have worked great for me, but I have less range time with the 120 gr load. I saw you suggested 28.5 gr of 8208 for the 123 Amax, and that load would like do well with the 120 NBT as well. I settled on 28 gr to try to lower the operating stress a little.
Also, I'm excited to hear about the 123 SST. That could be a good all around projectile!
Best,
PA

[seatleroadwr]

Nosler 120 grain boat tails seem to shoot well with about any powder charge I try. They rarely produce over a 3/4" group at 100 yds for me. The last trial I had with them used the following receipe 31.5 grains of leverevolution, CCI 450 primers, COL 2.274, FPS=2570 with a 22 inch barrel.

[Dogue]

Bob,
I would suggest the following.
Lapua or Hornady Brass and Rem 7.5 primers. Velocitiy listed for 20" LW barrel.

120 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip – Overall Cartridge length = 2.225”

XBR 8208
28.0 gr – 2515fps,

Best,
PA

I found similar results from my 18" Shaw barrel with that load using CCI41's
2522 fps, SD 6.0, ES 14

One of the 120 NBT loads from the old forum that my rifle liked but may be pushing the pressure limits was 31.0g of W748.

I'm able to load them at 2.250 without touching the lands