After reading other threads, I have realized that many shooters on this forum are firing a lot more rounds than I am before having to do the deed and clean their barrels. I am back to using Butches BS only. I spend a good hour and a half of repeatedly running soaked patches, dry patches through bore, w/ chamber guide, and early on, scrubbing with a 22 caliber nylon brush wrapped with a soaked 30 cal. patch. I will spend 5 to 10 min. intervals at times letting the barrel soak a little and than get back to it. Usually about 45 to 55 patches worth. Gun shoots decent for about 20 - 25 shots, and begins to open up to 1 to 1 1/2". Any ideas on what I am missing here?
Can you give us some details on the ammo you are using?
Factory or hand loads?
Rifle details?
Yes I can. Have a rifle length, 20" Lilja barrel. 1:8 twist. Still using various hand loads trying to find a fav. using 748, BL©-2, H335, and TAC. 100 gr. Barnes, 107 gr. Sierras, 120 gr. Nosler BT, Hornady and Sierra 123.
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afpumpman Wrote:After reading other threads, I have realized that many shooters on this forum are firing a lot more rounds than I am before having to do the deed and clean their barrels. I am back to using Butches BS only. I spend a good hour and a half of repeatedly running soaked patches, dry patches through bore, w/ chamber guide, and early on, scrubbing with a 22 caliber nylon brush wrapped with a soaked 30 cal. patch. I will spend 5 to 10 min. intervals at times letting the barrel soak a little and than get back to it. Usually about 45 to 55 patches worth. Gun shoots decent for about 20 - 25 shots, and begins to open up to 1 to 1 1/2". Any ideas on what I am missing here?
AFPM:
If it takes you an hour and a half with 50 patches to clean your barrel, your barrel is toast. Or, you have a serious case of OCD.
How do you know that the groups are opening up?
Also, who made the barrel and did they glue it into the receiver using lock tite?
LR1955
OCD? Not really, when the patches are brown to black streaked on every groove, seems like it needs another. Or do you just do it for time? The upper is properly put together I would think as it was purchased from an assembler who gets plenty of good press here. I am not up to speed on assembling these guns and had to buy it.
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07-06-2012, 11:28 PM
(This post was last modified: 07-06-2012, 11:29 PM by rasp65.)
You have a Lijla barrel they are generally accepted as top tier barrels. You should send an email to Dan Lilja explaining your problems. Barrel makers have had some bad steel dumped on them by their suppliers from time to time.
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afpumpman Wrote:OCD? Not really, when the patches are brown to black streaked on every groove, seems like it needs another. Or do you just do it for time? The upper is properly put together I would think as it was purchased from an assembler who gets plenty of good press here. I am not up to speed on assembling these guns and had to buy it.
AFPM:
Lilja makes good barrels.
Why are you convinced that the groups are opening up due to fowling and not due to human error?
LR1955
That is fair. I am shooting a savage 260 next to it w/no problem staying sub moa. The 6.5 does the same (3/4") but opens up after about 4 or 5 loads. The Savage keeps on shooting.
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afpumpman Wrote:That is fair. I am shooting a savage 260 next to it w/no problem staying sub moa. The 6.5 does the same (3/4") but opens up after about 4 or 5 loads. The Savage keeps on shooting.
Well, if you are convinced it is the barrel, get a new barrel. Excessive fowling that doesn't seem to end is normally a sign that the barrel is gone. Could be that it was not good to begin with. Could be that somehow it got shot out although I would doubt it with a Grendel unless it was hammered to death sustained, rapid, and or automatic fire.
Perhaps another indicator is this. Did you buy it used?
LR1955
New upper, fresh barrel, tits to the wall. No hot barrel, Baby-ed, really. I guess no one is cleaning this much, BTW, fouling is almost entirely carbon. The barrel seemed to break in fine and had no issues with copper. Probably have 300 rounds through it. Will try a different powder tomorrow and cross fingers.
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One other thought: Are you switching bullet types back and forth when this accuracy degradation happens?
Bill A., myself and others have noted before that some bullets do not play well with others... One example is the Nosler Bt's. I can shoot Sierras and get great results, then switch to Nosler BT's and also get great results. Then when I switch back to the Sierras my groups will go to crap for a while. It has something to do with bullet jacket alloys I think, and it is pretty repeatable. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case with your setup, but it's worth reviewing what bullets you are using before and during this accuracy degradation.
I may be way off, but why not let the barrel get a lil bit dirtier. Try getting the round count to 100+ to see if in that span, (30-70) the accuracy tightens up. You might have an easier time cleaning if you use a 6.5mm /.264 Diameter brush. I generally get 300-400 rnds between cleanings. I completely disassemble and clean my BCG every other trip to the range regardless of the current round count.
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It has been my experience that even the best bore cleaners, Butch's included, do not remove powder fowling with the same expediency as they do on copper. This is why my first step in cleaning is a liberal application of GM Top End Cleaner and letting that soak before I brush it out using nylon bristle brushes on aluminum carriers. I do this twice before I attack the copper.
Let me digress a bit. I am a 64yr old former Marine and always been an avid shooter. In those years I honestly believe I have tried every bore cleaner made, Sweets, Hoppes, Ed's Red and Butch's and they all work.... some better, some faster. My younger shooting friends tell me that I am getting lazy in my old age, I prefer to think I have become more efficient. I love to build guns to shoot and reload but I hate two things in life, mowing grass and cleaning guns. That is why I have evolved my current cleaning regimen. As stated I go after the powder fowling and then I use SHARP SHOOT R WIPE-OUT PATCH-OUT with WIPE-OUT ACCELERATOR. I apply these chemicals with 30cal wool bore mops go off and do something else while they work. I then patch dry using delrin jags that I turn myself on stainless rods so that I don't get any false positive color from brass jags. Repeat as necessary until I get no more color on the patches. Is this better than your method, I don't know... you compare my method to yours and let me know. What I do know is it works for me and others that have tried it, is the least hassle of any method I've tried over the years and is as easy on barrels as any method I've tried. Give it a try and let me know how it works for you says I as I climb down from my soap box..
Variable, yes we are mixing when this happens. Today I went out w/ CFE loads in hand and w/ 120 gr. Noster BT's got 1/2, 5/8, and a couple of 3/4" 5 round groups. Starting working up 100 grain Barnes bullets and am at 1" to 1 1/2". Blamed the difference on the bullet, started shooting the 100 gr. Amax and got 1 1/4", 3/4" and 1 1/4". I know the rifle should like this bullet. Pulled out a load I know the rifle shoots well, w/ TAC powder, 1 1/2" ! Today I am about 45 rounds into the gun in 4 hours when I get that group, and I pack up and go. Gun is a laser for a while though. Maybe i will just feed it a bunch of those Nosler's with this powder that shot so well today and see. Might just go on a no clean campaign for awhile too. Sounds way mo fun.
I would keep the carbon cleaned out, but let the copper lay. That being said, you might contact a local smith and have the bore scoped to see what is going on. I thought I read somewhere that lilja pipes were hand lapped, I may be mistaken, but if so, I dont think your barrel should be that hard to clean. However, you sometimes get a barrel that isnt as slick or good as others. Also, try what the other guys are saying and stick with one bullet and see what happens.
whats the best stuff to use to clean just the carbon out??.. all the stuff I have says its for copper removal
Iam finding my grendel seems to shoot better with a "dirty" barrel
Try Wipe Out foaming bore cleaner. I too have tried and used just about everything, and use Butch's a lot. But my dad gave me a can of this stuff. I was very skiptical, but WOW, it removed the carbon AND the copper much faster than Butch's. Don't know if others have tried it, haven't researched it much because it just works for me.
I also have a Lilja barrel on my 300WSM, and it seems to copper foul a little more than the Shilens, Kreigers, Baers, etc that I have used.
I also use Wipeout, the foaming formula works great but the patch formula is more convenient, like wheelgunner mentions above. I use a 6.5 cal piercing jag and 1 1/2" cotton patches from Sinclair for a tight fit and never put a brush in my barrel, don't need to. I start with the patch out accelerator by wetting the patch and pushing it through form chamber to muzzle, pull the patch off and carefully retract the rod. Let is set for a few minutes, maybe five or so, and then follow up with three to five patches wet with patch out. This will generally remove nearly all powder and carbon and most copper. I usually let it sit for a few more minutes and then use another wet patch. If it comes out clean then I follow up with 3-5 dry patches and your done. The patch out is a color mark system, powder fouling is grey, carbon black, and copper blue. You can see as you remove the layers of fouling. I also have a hawkeye bore scope and periodically inspect to insure my cleaning regime is doing the job. That is what lead me to the conclusion that the patch out removes fouling better than Hoppes, Shooters Choice, Butches Bore Shine, Sweets, and so forth.
I don't agree with letting the copper lie, copper fouling is known to degrade accuracy.
Bob
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I use bore foam too (when I actually clean anything). I have both the Wipe Out and Break Free brands. They seem to be the same product (just relabled) from what I can tell. They work pretty well for me also.
stokesrj Wrote:I also use Wipeout, the foaming formula works great but the patch formula is more convenient, like wheelgunner mentions above. I use a 6.5 cal piercing jag and 1 1/2" cotton patches from Sinclair for a tight fit and never put a brush in my barrel, don't need to. I start with the patch out accelerator by wetting the patch and pushing it through form chamber to muzzle, pull the patch off and carefully retract the rod. Let is set for a few minutes, maybe five or so, and then follow up with three to five patches wet with patch out. This will generally remove nearly all powder and carbon and most copper. I usually let it sit for a few more minutes and then use another wet patch. If it comes out clean then I follow up with 3-5 dry patches and your done. The patch out is a color mark system, powder fouling is grey, carbon black, and copper blue. You can see as you remove the layers of fouling. I also have a hawkeye bore scope and periodically inspect to insure my cleaning regime is doing the job. That is what lead me to the conclusion that the patch out removes fouling better than Hoppes, Shooters Choice, Butches Bore Shine, Sweets, and so forth.
I don't agree with letting the copper lie, copper fouling is known to degrade accuracy.
Bob
Bob, I too disagree about letting the copper lie;sometimes. I have found that some of my pipes shoot better with light copper and some dont. I have a 5.56 AR that shoots great after about 50 rounds and up to around 250 rounds. It will not shoot when squeaky clean. On the other hand, I have a 25-06 that wont hit the side of a barn after 25-30 rounds. I guess I was too general in my opinion. Keep me straight! 
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