Latest Russian 6x41 Cartridge

[BluntForceTrauma]

Russia has been tossing around a 6mm military cartridge for decades and has apparently circled back to it, yet again. Kalashnikov announced on December 14, 2023, a 6.02 x 41 cartridge.

Yet another fat case, sleek bullet design concept pioneered by the 6.5 Grendel. The world is slowly coming around to the sound cartridge engineering we recognized way back in 2003. Matter of fact this is the time of year in 2003 when David Fortier released an article in Shotgun News about what was at first called .26 Grendel.

Anyway, you think Russian military will officially adopt Kalashnikov's new cartridge?

[Lemonaid]

No.
O.K., a bit more: First think of all the 7.62x39 and the newer 5.45×39mm ammo that Russia has, and all the equipment and supplies to make them, and the people getting rich off of it. Second the timing bodes ill for it right now with the war in Ukraine so it will be put off for years before it gets another look at.

[biodsl]

Ha! The new 'arms race'. We'll see your 6ARC and raise you one!

In a significant advancement in military ammunition, Russia has announced the development of a new 6.02×41 caliber cartridge. Designed by the Tula Ammunition Plant, this innovative ammunition aims to provide superior penetration power, meeting the increasing demands of modern weaponry.
The need for this innovation was driven by the continuous evolution of soldiers' protective equipment and the limitations in upgrading existing calibers, notably the 5.45×39 and 5.56×45, used in Russia and the United States, respectively. The new 6.02×41 caliber directly responds to these challenges, offering an improvement in range and penetration force.

According to tests conducted by Russia, the 6.02×41 cartridge retains a kinetic energy of 500 Joules for a 6.7-gram bullet at a distance of 900 meters, a feat significantly surpassing the performance of the 5.45 and 7.62 mm calibers.

Seems a lot easier than developing, say, the X5.

In conjunction with this development, the Kalashnikov Group has engineered the AK-22 automatic rifle and a semi-automatic sniper rifle specifically tailored to this new caliber

Smart. To answer your question, BTF, yes, they should adopt it.

No.
O.K., a bit more: First think of all the 7.62x39 and the newer 5.45×39mm ammo that Russia has, and all the equipment and supplies to make them, and the people getting rich off of it. Second the timing bodes ill for it right now with the war in Ukraine so it will be put off for years before it gets another look at.

Fair point, to which I would add how few optics are being employed in the Russia/Ukraine war. A new rifle in this new caliber is of no benefit without the optics to leverage it's better ballistics.

[lazyengineer]

Neat!

Will Russia adopt? No. They lack the financial resources; but more to the point, the fundamental question on adoption isn't "Is it a better performing round?" The question is: "Is it materially better that it make a meaningful impact on battlefield outcomes?" or "is it of similar or otherwise acceptable efficacy while freeing limited wartime resources that can now be used on other priorities?" or "is this coinciding with related material upgrades being planned already, and so of minimal additional cost and logistics impact?"

This is my problem with M855A1. Because the answer is not yes to either of those, and is actually a negative to a no, on the last two. Instead M855A1 answered the only USA question of: "Does it minimize the environmental impact on the battlefield of the people we're trying to kill?"

That's not entirely true, as M855A1 arguable has improved armor piecing impacts, and with the common issue of body armor, it's possible that M855A1 will affect the outcome on the battlefield. This isn't to say the outcome of any particular gunfight, but the actual battle, and change the outcome on the battlefield. I would argue no, and that the resources could have been better spent on an extra 200 rounds of aimed fire with M855 (or M193) - is my own opinion.

And so, on that logic, will a Russian 6mm Grendel version of 6ARC, incorporate an improved armor piecing capability that materially enhances capabilites to counter common battle field armor? If the answer is "Yes", then that's a solid Smaybe that they will adopt anyway.

[VASCAR2]

I could see the adoption and use by special forces where the likelihood of encountering opposition with body armor is expected. My question is, can 6.02x41 perforate Level IV rifle level armor? Even if the opposition has body armor there are still areas on the body not protected. Body armor doesn’t always protect a person from pressure wave or fragments from explosives. I’d be surprised if the majority of combat in Ukraine isn’t still at less than 100 meters and effective fire from rifleman beyond 300 meters is rare.

[grayfox]

The only fire over there at say150+ m is artillery or tank, lol.
That 6.02 bullet looks like a secant, sleeker ogive which is different, for them I think.

[BluntForceTrauma]

I’d be surprised if the majority of combat in Ukraine isn’t still at less than 100 meters and effective fire from rifleman beyond 300 meters is rare.

Ukraine conflict is proving to be interesting for students of military history — not ignoring the human tragedy of wasted lives on both sides — because it has wide swaths of open country separated by small woodlots, plus the small towns and large cities. Perfect proving ground for small arms that can be used at extended ranges as well as close in.

A point that LRRPF52 always brings up is also borne out, that much of the killing is done by weapons other than personal small arms — drones being an interesting example.

[LRRPF52]

One thing about Russia is that they don’t think about things the same way we do in the West.

They are a very primitive people with a childish mentality (which I say cringingly as an American with Finnish heritage), and small arms development weighs heavily in the government's credibility to its serf army.

Take how impossible it is to explain the complexity and capability gap in the different weapons systems in the US inventory even to its own servicemen, let alone civilian gun enthusiasts in an open information society, then amplify that by a huge factor for poverty-stricken peasants who have never really understood the major improvements of the stages of industrial revolutions over the past few centuries.

Their language gives you some insight into what I’m talking about.

Any vehicle in common daily vernacular is referred to as “machina" and its effectiveness is measured in “rabota” (it works?).

Because of the northern latitudes of the bulk of Russian population in what equates to Hudson Bay in Canada, it’s brutally-cold most of the year, land-locked, far away from the trade routes. Things move slowly, so the major inputs of the Industrial Revolutions have not caught on there fully....ever.

Small arms represent a symbol of military might that a serf can understand, regardless of how effective they are in an overall weapons mix.

In practice, the Russian military has been focused on artillery since the late 1800s arms race after the Franco-Prussian War, where German high-strength steel cannon tubes allowed them to crush the French, even though the French had better rifles.

Within the Russian military and culture, the Kalashnikov is the symbol of their superiority. They truly believe it’s the best firearms design in the world and no amount of logic, reasoning, or dispassionate analyses can convince then otherwise.

That symbol then serves as a template for the rest of their weapons. If the people’s designers got it so correct with the Kalashnikov, then of course the respective engineers got it right with the MiGs, Sukhois, tanks, artillery, etc.

Maybe this new cartridge is an effort to continue that concept, as some of their more clever gun guys have lamented on their forums, “Why did we not do a 6.5x39?”

They also watched the Chinese develop the 5.8x42 High Performance Intermediate Rifle Cartridge with no real response from Russian designers until now.

This appears to be more like the Chicom 5.8x42.

----------------------------5.8x42---------------- 5.45x39-------- 7.62x39------- 5.56x45---------------- 6.5 Grendel

[65Carcano]

New article on this just came out:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2024...mini-svch/

[Timitus]

New article on this just came out:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2024...mini-svch/

Thanks for posting this.

[Fess]

They mention that the bullet weighs 6.7grams or 103.4 grams. With the form factor shown, it needs a tungsten core to weigh that much. Similar to the 5.45 7N39. Then again, Russia ranks #2 in the world for tungsten reserves (second only to China).
The lack of tungsten resources in the US is one of the reasons I suspect behind the 6.8x51 was chosen vs a 6mm option. With a given bullet form factor, sectional density goes up with bullet diameter, so the less dense steel/copper US General Purpose bullet needed to be larger to provide reasonable barrier defeat and BC.