Quote:LIBERTYS BEGINNING
Liberty Safe was founded in 1988 by Jay Crosby, an engineer and entrepreneur who had previously co-founded the Fort Knox safe company. When we began, we built our safes by hand and worried more about making high-quality gun safes than having a large output.
Customers appreciated our focus on quality, and before long Liberty was able to expand. Within a year, we moved into a 25,000 square-foot production facility in Provo, Utah. In 1995, Crosby sold Liberty Safe to an investor and the brand experienced huge growth, doubling its sales and profitability in less than 4 years.
Over the next few years, Liberty moved its main headquarters to Springville, Utah, while keeping its Provo facility running. We eventually added another facility in Provo, along with a 45,000-square foot distribution center in Spanish Fork, Utah. Throughout the years, weve invested in cutting-edge technology that has helped us produce consistently high-quality safes in larger numbers. We are currently owned by an investment company called Monomoy Capital Partners LP. Monomoy Capital Partners is a private equity firm with over $2.7 billion in committed capital. We make equity and debt investments in middle-market businesses that can benefit from operational and financial improvement in the manufacturing, distribution, and consumer sectors.
In 2001, we consolidated all of our operations to a 200,000 square foot facility in Payson, Utah. We have since expanded and now operate out of a 300,000 square foot facility, where we can produce up to 700 safes a day at peak capacity.
A COMMITMENT TO AMERICAN WORKERS
Liberty Safe currently employees nearly 400 Americans at our Payson, Utah facility. Plus, we support hundreds of independent Liberty Safe dealers throughout the U.S.A. Around 95% of the products we sell are American made, and were proud to be Americas top-producing safe manufacturer.
Its sad for the workers and customers who didnt know that a liberal, Democrat-funding investment firm owns them and uses the hard-earned money of true Americans to finance anti-freedom, anti-American efforts to disarm them.
I have a feeling this company will be going through their version of Bud Light.
NRA Basic, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, RSO
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After seeing Liberty Safe try to back pedal like Bush beer tried after the Bud Lite disaster, Liberty does not need any money from gun owners.
But, my bet is that a bunch of gun owners will get huffy about it and defend their decision to buy a Liberty safe. Probably the same ones who don't vote and justify it by saying that all politicians are the same.
They have turned their company name into an orwellian-doublespeak, 180-deg opposite oxy-moron:
No liberty, not safe.
Your liberties are not safe with us.
"Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"
BluntForceTrauma Wrote:Liberty issued a statement they complied with a legit warrant. But, hey, they could be lying.
In a sane world (we are NOT in a sane world), I have no problem with a company complying with a legit warrant.
As always in these matters, I am very slow to throw an erstwhile ally in the trash heap.
Gun rights emotions are always on a hair trigger, and betrayal provokes the strongest emotions.
However, cool heads shouldn't rush to judgment; innocent until proven guilty.
The next president, whoever he is, needs to pardon all J6ers wrongly accused or unfairly sentenced in these damn banana republic, kangaroo court, show trial, witch hunts.
It's my understanding that they complied with a warrant to search the property. Warrants don't give law enforcement unlimited assess to your problem. They must be limited in nature; otherwise, it is a violation of the 4th Amendment. Unless the warranted specified the safe, Liberty had no obligation to comply.
That being said, complying with a warrant legitimate or not is not the problem here. The problem is that Liberty built in a back door we, the safe owners, were unaware. Liberty, or anyone, holding an access code to my safe is completely unacceptable. I bought a new Liberty Safe about a year ago that I unquestionably would not have bought if I had known this. This is a direct violation of the purchase agreement I had with Liberty that borders on fraud.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
cory Wrote:It's my understanding that they complied with a warrant to search the property. Warrants don't give law enforcement unlimited assess to your problem. They must be limited in nature; otherwise, it is a violation of the 4th Amendment. Unless the warranted specified the safe, Liberty had no obligation to comply.
That being said, complying with a warrant legitimate or not is not the problem here. The problem is that Liberty built in a back door we, the safe owners, were unaware. Liberty, or anyone, holding an access code to my safe is completely unacceptable. I bought a new Liberty Safe about a year ago that I unquestionably would not have bought if I had known this. This is a direct violation of the purchase agreement I had with Liberty that borders on fraud.
You understand that you don't have to comply with a search warrant in which you are not named, right? For example, the cops are serving a warrant on your best friend's house and learn you have a key to the house. Do you give them the key? You aren't named in the warrant. The house isn't yours. The 4th amendment still applies to you and the key you possess to your buddy's house. When you provide the cops with the key, you think your buddy will be happy with you? Your excuse will be that you complied with a warrant which had nothing to do with you.
Liberty complied with a valid warrant, true enough. The problem was that they were not served with a warrant, nor were they named in the warrant, and even if the safe was named in the warrant, they were not. They gave access to property that was not their property to give access to, and that is the real problem.
As for the back doors, I will let you in on a little secret. If you didn't build the electronic lock yourself and from scratch, then it is going to have a back door, master code, etc. I am sorry you didn't realize that in advance. Why do they do this? Because consumers are idiots and lose and forget their combinations. It allows them to provide service after the sale when the customer needs it. The best part is that they can provide the service for a charge that requires minimal effort or expense on their part and they help out customers on a regular basis like this.
If the back door on your safe bothers you, then if you have purchased a car within the last decade, you aren't going to be happy at all.
I have a Liberty safe with a mechanical tumbler (never ever wanted a digital lock on anything) and I assume there is not a second "master" physical combination in the lock, but I heard the sage wisdom years ago that locks only keep honest people honest, and any lock can be defeated.
Double Naught Spy Wrote:You understand that you don't have to comply with a search warrant in which you are not named, right? For example, the cops are serving a warrant on your best friend's house and learn you have a key to the house. Do you give them the key? You aren't named in the warrant. The house isn't yours. The 4th amendment still applies to you and the key you possess to your buddy's house. When you provide the cops with the key, you think your buddy will be happy with you? Your excuse will be that you complied with a warrant which had nothing to do with you.
Liberty complied with a valid warrant, true enough. The problem was that they were not served with a warrant, nor were they named in the warrant, and even if the safe was named in the warrant, they were not. They gave access to property that was not their property to give access to, and that is the real problem.
That's fair. However, I stand by my point. The problem isn't what they did. The real problem is that they could do it.
Double Naught Spy Wrote:As for the back doors, I will let you in on a little secret. If you didn't build the electronic lock yourself and from scratch, then it is going to have a back door, master code, etc. I am sorry you didn't realize that in advance. Why do they do this? Because consumers are idiots and lose and forget their combinations. It allows them to provide service after the sale when the customer needs it. The best part is that they can provide the service for a charge that requires minimal effort or expense on their part and they help out customers on a regular basis like this.
If the back door on your safe bothers you, then if you have purchased a car within the last decade, you aren't going to be happy at all.
I'm not happy with the current state of things. I take steps to secure the technology I use and where I can't I choose to accept the risk or I avoid the technology. I expect modern "secure" systems to abide by modern cyber security practices.
Double Naught Spy Wrote:If you didn't build the electronic lock yourself and from scratch, then it is going to have a back door, master code, etc.
That's technically incorrect and the distinction makes all the difference in the world. It's going to have a backdoor/master code if the programmer, coded in a back door/master code. It's a function of the firmware, not the hardware.
If you want to sell a lock and offer to keep a master code on file as a service to the consumer that's fine. However, that's not what Liberty has done. They have deceived the consumer. They advertise what a reasonable person would assume is a secured system outside of extraneous circumstances. A secured system doesn't have master codes nor is the access code accessible to joe blow. I thought I was buying a secure system, at least as secure as I could get in that price range. What I actually got was big brother's "safe".
What Liberty has done, beyond work with the state to violate the property rights of one of their customers, is extremely unethical at best and fraudulent at worst. I'd argue it's far closer to the latter than the former.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
Back doors exist to your computer, phone, software, firmware, electronic locks, etc. You may not like it. You may not have known it. But they exist across countless industries. Modern standards involve the back doors, plain and simple. The worst part is that companies will tell you that there are no back doors when there really are.
Double Naught Spy Wrote:Back doors exist to your computer, phone, software, firmware, electronic locks, etc. You may not like it. You may not have known it. But they exist across countless industries. Modern standards involve the back doors, plain and simple. The worst part is that companies will tell you that there are no back doors when there really are.
Your statement leads me to believe that you're under the impression backdoors are a naturally occurring function of software and firmware. That couldn't be further from the truth. Back doors require additional and intentional lines of code. They require additional resources in the design and development of a system.
Therefore, we can only assume that Liberty required that these locks be designed and delivered to them with a backdoor. I suspect how they work is that each lock comes with 2 programmable access codes. They allow the customer to program 1 of the 2 with their unique code while they program the other with a unique code they store in house. I fear there could be 1 master code that unlocks all locks or a small list of master codes. None of this is acceptable.
What I don't understand is why you or anyone would take the position that this is just the way it is and we should just accept these big brother practices.
"Those who sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither." Benjamin Franklin
I don't quite agree with that. What DNS is saying, (not to put words in his mouth) is that commercial application programmers have routinely, maybe always, programmed in some kind of backdoor or admin code. I remember when I was a DBA with Access and Sql server, we always had at minimum an admin code that would allow access into all accounts. Plus as I recall the gubmnt pretty much required app programmers to put in a back door so they could get in. They lean on/"persuade" the publishers/big company, so employees have to comply or lose their jobs.
So I think this whole bottom line is, if you want a software app, it's going to come with a backdoor in there too. This would also apply to products that have software programmed in. Apple was one of the last holdouts, but they too seem to have capitulated.
The key point is the weasel-wording Liberty used, in that they said "there was a warrant", but in saying they didn't know what the issue was etc etc, they admit that they were not served and they did not have a rwitten copy of it. Liberty's fall-down is still there, in my eyes. They had several legal/legit responses available, and chose to knuckle under.
ps, don't be so trusting of "the cloud" b/c you're not the only one who can see into your stuff "up there."
"Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"
09-19-2023, 11:45 PM (This post was last modified: 09-20-2023, 12:31 AM by Klem.)
Cory,
I don't think the issue is the existence of backdoors, but who has access to the door. And not just gun safes, all our technology.
Every hotel room door has a backdoor, whether it be modern access cards or the older physical Master-keys. The safes inside our hotel rooms have backdoors for customers who forget their PINs. Our installed home security systems will have an admin code. If they include cameras and connected to the internet for self monitoring there is a reasonable chance others can watch remotely. Our mobile phone betrays us wherever we take it, and why a lot of crime is solved so quickly nowadays. Although common knowledge, the media in Australia have an agreement with the police to not emphasize how the authorities 'ping' the phones of known offenders every time there is a major crime, and of all phones within a radius of known crimes. In this case it is not the maker of the phone, but the Telco's cooperating with the Police on a systematic basis, probably even charging for the service. For more serious investigations at the Federal level your phone can be activated remotely (camera and microphone). Facial recognition software tracks us constantly in public, matching our faces to not only file data, but social media postings. If you or your employer has ever put your photo online - too late.
The Australian Police were criticized for accessing data used to keep us safe during COVID. A phone app encouraged by the State Government to help them alert anyone who had come in contact with infected others was covertly used by the Police to solve two murders in Western Australia. While the Police were adamant they had done nothing wrong and in fact had solved crime, the community and Health Department were annoyed when the story broke. Obviously trust had been broken between the Government and people. Although there were assurances it wouldn't happen again, people stopped downloading and using the app.
In the gun safe case from reading the thread I understand there was a warrant, but that it did not include the manufacturer. That Liberty did not consult, or even inform the owner at the time is an issue of commercial trust. Years ago I owned a security company and found out via the Police the local Motorola service rep had given them all our UHF radio serial numbers without informing us we were under investigation. The police were investigating the theft of radios from another company. The fact the rep complied with the police who at the time also encouraged him not to let us know, was in our view a breach of trust. We had a tense conversation with him later and replaced our radios with Icoms (cheaper anyway). On realizing his business with us was about to evaporate he was most apologetic and tried to argue it was the Police and not just anyone - too little, too late.
Access to our stuff and privacy is ubiquitous, but it's how much control we have over this that is the issue.
cory Wrote:Your statement leads me to believe that you're under the impression backdoors are a naturally occurring function of software and firmware. That couldn't be further from the truth. Back doors require additional and intentional lines of code. They require additional resources in the design and development of a system.
...
What I don't understand is why you or anyone would take the position that this is just the way it is and we should just accept these big brother practices.
LOL, you believed wrong. I don't believe backdoors occur naturally as a practice (though some are design flaws that are natural as with other mistakes), but backdoors are absolutely not uncommon in the software and firmware industries. In fact, the problems have been a persistent issue for years.
LOL, you believed wrong. I don't believe backdoors occur naturally as a practice (though some are design flaws that are natural as with other mistakes), but backdoors are absolutely not uncommon in the software and firmware industries. In fact, the problems have been a persistent issue for years.
As for accepting it as that is just the way it is, whether you accept it or not isn't relevant. It is the way that it is. They are commonplace in the software and firmware fields, often done as part of code development and/or done as an administrative super access pass. Is it common? Apple can get into your secured iPhone. They have a backdoor. That accounts for over 21% (1.46 billion iPhones) of the worlds cell phone market. You can be Samsung and the others have them as well. That's just cell phones, LOL.
This page is neat. It is from Schlage. Lost your code? Open the lock for the default code. Changed the default code or can't read it? Contact Schlage and they will help you get in. BOOM, built in back door. https://support.tranehome.com/hc/en-us/a...ming-Code-
Some of Kwikset's locks have backdoors, not held by the company, but if you have the manual and forgot your code, it will walk you through resetting it. So the company would not be the only holder of this, but anyone with the manual. https://www.kwikset.com/support/answers/...y-obsidian
The fact that Liberty advertised that they could help you get into your safe if you get locked out should have been a clue to most folks that there is a back door, but most folks would not think of it like that. https://www.libertysafe.com/blogs/the-va...to-my-safe
Fun video...
[video=youtube_share;b5CzzgTEEnA]https://youtu.be/b5CzzgTEEnA[/video]
Treadlock is what I have. Bought it in Phoenix City Alabama in 1984 when at IOAC at Benning.
Dial and lever and you better not forget the combination or you will have to cut it open.
And yes, it actually worked when the cockroach infested house I was renting in Columbus at the time got broken into by the local meth freaks.
Still have it to this day. When loaded with stuff, good luck moving it without a forklift. I think it weighs a couple hundred pounds empty and when full, a whole lot more.
The reality is any safe is just a method to slow down access to what ever is being protected..Just like after market catalytic converter guards are just a deterrent, not absolute protection..
Fire has always been my main concern and there are methods to increase fire resistant too..
With metal cutting tools available today, it is actually not very hard to access portable safes for any determined criminal..
The old buried pvc pipe is still a viable option if the location is sound..
09-20-2023, 05:07 PM (This post was last modified: 09-21-2023, 12:44 AM by Old Bob.)
I have a dial & lever safe as well. It was made by a local safe builder back in the 80's. He's dead now & his business died with him but I did find a local lock smith that knows these safes. He helped me with my safe when it was being stubborn opening. It would take 10 or more tries before the combo worked & the safe would open. Opens first try every time now.
I've been burgled 3 times & still have all my guns.
EDIT: I was gonna attach these photos earlier but I my brother needed to use my computer urgently so I let him do his business & put off posting the pics 'til now. I hope the "Do not Torch" decal was a deterrent to the burglars. I also found a place to put my stray decals & stickers. LOL
