Done with vortex

[Zeneffect]

Lost parallax adjustment beyond 200 yards today... right after the 1st stage with no optic backup. I ran infinity parallax and shot a hot mess and it has me kind of pissed off. The third place should have been a first. When the slightest shift is 3" at 550 yards... I miss if the damn reticle is moving against the target and target requirement is hitting a 5" plate.

This is the 2nd vortex scope that has failed me during a match. The first was a viper that lost elevation, now this venom has lost parallax. I think I'll be avoiding vortex everything moving forward. If this were a do or die moment, nah. Points is one thing, but points represent a make or break shot. If I can't trust my equipment then I can't make that shot... and one day it might be me or someone I know counting on that hit.

I can't do it. It's not up to the standards of which I require. I'm pulling every piece of vortex glass I have, rma, then sell it. I can't put up with this kind of frustration any more. Fool(fail) me once shame on you, fool(fail) me twice...

-end rant

[LRRPF52]

That sucks big time when that happens. I’ve watched some of the top competitors break their scopes in matches and they were not happy. That includes Hensoldt, Zeiss, Leupold, Schmidt, Vortex, and some others, almost always from a bump and a fall on the elevation or windage turrets.

I broke the parallax on a Schmidt & Bender PM II 5-25x56 doing precision testing for a rifle manufacturer back sometime between 2008-2010. Whole image went cloudy, which was not cool. That was just from shooting, but that scope had been migrated in between so many .308s, .300 Win Mags, and .338 Lapua Magnums that it didn’t really surprise anyone. Not sure what the round count on it was, but it had been through a lot.

For Vortex, I wouldn’t buy anything other than Viper PST Gen II or Razor series if it was for regular competition, since those have the epoxied optical modules that can take a beating and not fail.

My Gen I PSTs have held up amazingly-well though. Tracking and repeatability have been great. I think I got my first Vortex in 2009, which was just a Viper 6.5-20x44 Mil Dot just to see what the company was like before the PSTs came out.

Here are the top scopes in PRS and NRL as of 2018:

On the chart above, the various colors represent where a shooter landed in terms of rank. For example, the black color indicates shooters who finished in the top 10 in the PRS, the darkest blue is people who finished 11-25 in the PRS, and the lighter the blue, the lower they finished in overall standings. The green colors represents the top shooters in the NRL, where the darkest green is the top 10, medium green is 11-25, and light green are the shooters who’s season rank landed from 26th to 50th. The legend on the chart shows the league and ranks each color represents, but basically the darker the color, the higher up the shooters placed.

Good article on it rom PRS Blog

One company who I have not personally seen break yet is NigthForce, though I know of a few people that have issues. They are the gold standard in reliability, durability, but many also complain about their glass quality not being as bright and crisp as Schmidts, Kahles, Leica, Hensoldt, etc. The ATACR 7-35x56 F1 is $3600.


Kahles K25i 5-25×56 is special order at $3750.

Vortex Razor HD Gen 3 6-36x56 is only $3000.

If those are too steep, I really like the Vortex Viper PST Gen II 3-15x44 on sale right now for $898.

If you try to run the lower price point optics with variable power and parallax and shoot a lot, they will typically fail on you, especially on a gas gun.

They’re great for guys who never shoot, but want to slap something on to zero and take through hunting season with a tag or two, but aren’t for the serious shooter like you (which I think you already know).

If you do stay with Vortex, ask them for replacement value and a Gen II PST instead. I wouldn’t mess with any of their lower price point tubes for what you’re doing.

[Zeneffect]

I'm thinking I'll spend the coin and get a march in the highmaster line. Iirc, they run a 34mm OD tube, but the internals are the same as if it were 30mm. They went with the extra wall thickness which is pretty cool.

Scope went from 62F inside a house, to 68F car, then immediately saw 103-109F temps and baked in the sun. I couldn't touch the bell end for more than a few seconds. It had to be in the 140-150f range on the aluminum. Either something melted, expanded, or it let gas out or something... I don't know. All i know is shooting at dancing blobs because you can't focus the optic sucks. I know it's not mirage effect because I could cut through it up until I run out of parallax. After the 200 mark it does absolutely nothing until it hits infinity... and it used to not do this... it didn't do it last week. Friggin frackin piece of junk.

I need something that will take this kind of thermal shock + abuse + everything else I can throw at it.

[grayfox]

when they're fixed or when you're ready, let me know, I might be interested in any pst's, esp running up to 24x or so.
I have several pst gen 1's, 6-24x50, 1 3-15 pst gen 2...
All Moa so if you're in mils I'll pass. Just staying consistent. 30mm tubes.
I've passed so far on any of their venoms.
I have some strike eagles but they're 2fp, but do the job I've got them on.

[LR1955]

I'm thinking I'll spend the coin and get a march in the highmaster line. Iirc, they run a 34mm OD tube, but the internals are the same as if it were 30mm. They went with the extra wall thickness which is pretty cool.

Scope went from 62F inside a house, to 68F car, then immediately saw 103-109F temps and baked in the sun. I couldn't touch the bell end for more than a few seconds. It had to be in the 140-150f range on the aluminum. Either something melted, expanded, or it let gas out or something... I don't know. All i know is shooting at dancing blobs because you can't focus the optic sucks. I know it's not mirage effect because I could cut through it up until I run out of parallax. After the 200 mark it does absolutely nothing until it hits infinity... and it used to not do this... it didn't do it last week. Friggin frackin piece of junk.

I need something that will take this kind of thermal shock + abuse + everything else I can throw at it.

ZE:

If it moved between the 200 and infinity, it must have moved the entire range. I can not see how it could jump from 200 to infinity the way they work.

Have you tried it since?

I really don't have any loyalty to any particular optic brand and if I were to buy one for PRS or something akin, I would look at the chart LRRP 52 posted and go from there. It would be one of the top three brands listed though.

LR-55

[jasper2408]

Here is what the PRS website shows as scopes that are currently being used by competitors. This list is derived from questionnaires that the shooters fill out.

[url=][/url]

Here is the website:
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com

If you scroll down to almost the bottom of the page there is a drop down menu that lets you pick the gear that you are interested in seeing (actions, scopes, etc..).

[LRRPF52]

Another issue about comparing what the top PRS competitors are using is that they’re all shooting bolt guns for the most part.

Gas guns are a lot harder on optics typically due to the reciprocating mass impacting the breech and barrel extension upon return-to-battery.

That said, when you look at the top shooters, they are putting a high round count on rifles and optics just to be able to place repeatedly, which becomes like a part-time job when they run the circuit every year.

My default answer to scopes that hold up well on the SCAR-17 and AR-10 are NightForce and Razor HD Vortex. I haven’t seen a Leupold Mk5 break though, but haven’t seen too many of them with high round counts either.

If a scope will hold up to the SCAR-17 and AR-10, it will hold up on an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel.

I have broken all my 1-4x24 Korean (Discontinued for this reason) GRSC scopes, but I love the reticle so much that I kept rolling the dice on them.

The 1-6x24 GRSC Norden Performance is LOW made in Japan, and takes full-auto AR-10 abuse without a hiccup, so I have a lot more confidence in it. Not something you would shoot in competition with 2-3 MOA plates, but great for shooting 8-12” plates recreationally at UKD without ever needing to dial.

An ATACR 4-20x50 F1 would be a good fit on a 22”-24” Grendel.

[biodsl]

My Gen I PSTs have held up amazingly-well though. Tracking and repeatability have been great.

I have a SFP Gen I 2.5-10X44 with over 5,000 rounds of Grendel on it. Granted, it's not a PRS scope, but it did great at a Thunder Ranch Mid-Range AR course last year. Even still, I don't consider it 'duty grade'.

[Zeneffect]

Checking on some trees today, 388 yards per range finder and it won't focus. Inside of 200 I can get focus, beyond 200 nope (physical yards... not what's on turret, the turret has never been right) I have another of the exact same scope without this problem. Scope is poopoo, it needs to be set to infinity just to start to get the outlines of shape. Decent glass while it works but I need it to work all the time and never worry about it. Mk5 or nightforce nsx might be what I'm looking for. hold .5 moa, pull the scope, club a baby seal to death with it, slap it back on and expect no more than 1 moa shift should be the standard.

I have no brand loyalty. I need things to work as expected when I need them to. Maybe that's a pretty hard ask for commercial grade equipment.

[Zeneffect]

This is a picture of a palm tree 87 yards from where I'm standing (per range finder)



These are the 2x venom 5-25x56 side by side
They are both focused on that tree, specifically the white flowers on it.


Pick the bad scope. Also I never really noticed before but one is way brighter than the other.

[Klem]

Zene,

What a bummer. Don't they have a lifetime warranty?

March and NF are repeatable, clear glass, and robust. Our military is transitioning from S&B to NF ATACR 7-35x56F1.

The ATACR is 16" and weighs 39oz, so for a precision AR15 something more compact than a bolt gun scope perhaps. Like a March-F 3-24x52 in a 30mm tube, length 13" and weighs 24oz.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19863[/ATTACH]

[Zeneffect]

Yes, they have a no questions asked warranty. I'll be using it then dumping the scopes. I'm not in the habit of selling known defective items, they will be refreshed and inspected first.

This pic.... man this is a 1 mile gun. That's either a 50 or 100 moa prizim in front of the scope. I want very badly but my pockets aren't that deep. You might see me selling a kidney in the "other for sale" section.

[lazyengineer]

Lost parallax adjustment beyond 200 yards today... right after the 1st stage with no optic backup. I ran infinity parallax and shot a hot mess and it has me kind of pissed off. The third place should have been a first. When the slightest shift is 3" at 550 yards... I miss if the damn reticle is moving against the target and target requirement is hitting a 5" plate.

This is the 2nd vortex scope that has failed me during a match. The first was a viper that lost elevation, now this venom has lost parallax. I think I'll be avoiding vortex everything moving forward. If this were a do or die moment, nah. Points is one thing, but points represent a make or break shot. If I can't trust my equipment then I can't make that shot... and one day it might be me or someone I know counting on that hit.

I can't do it. It's not up to the standards of which I require. I'm pulling every piece of vortex glass I have, rma, then sell it. I can't put up with this kind of frustration any more. Fool(fail) me once shame on you, fool(fail) me twice...

-end rant

How did you l know it failed?

[lazyengineer]

Here is what the PRS website shows as scopes that are currently being used by competitors. This list is derived from questionnaires that the shooters fill out.

[url=][/url]

Here is the website:
https://www.precisionrifleseries.com

If you scroll down to almost the bottom of the page there is a drop down menu that lets you pick the gear that you are interested in seeing (actions, scopes, etc..).

Personally I think Primary Arms does everything Votex does, a little bit better. Though I don't see them represented at all. Then again, they aren't a sponsor either, so I don't know.

As to NightForce, agreed - that's the best glass you can get IMHO - when money doesn't matter. I have one. A 4.5X fixed powered unit I use in Service Rifle, and it's a fantastic piece of glass that's never failed me.

[Zeneffect]

I know it failed because of observation at range during a match, then again today after comparing against reference scope of same model and re-testing both known good and bad distances to see where parallax sits in relation to its range of motion. Both stop at the infinity mark so I'm presuming the range of adjustment vs range of motion should be the same.

Nx8 is in my price range without selling organs.

[LR1955]

I know it failed because of observation at range during a match, then again today after comparing against reference scope of same model and re-testing both known good and bad distances to see where parallax sits in relation to its range of motion. Both stop at the infinity mark so I'm presuming the range of adjustment vs range of motion should be the same.

Nx8 is in my price range without selling organs.

ZE:

Will be interesting to know what they find wrong. Do keep us informed please.

LR-55

[Zeneffect]

I'm interested to know also... though when the erector went out the only reason they listed was "internal damaged part"

I'm really leaning towards the nx8. I can't afford the 3k actar, but the nx8 8-32x56 is right in that goldilocks zone of features, glass, and price. Still doing my research and will visit a few stores to try some hands on before deciding then buying at best price I can find.

Also... from my point of view, though I can work with 1 scope out of the 2, a target closer than 100 yards in shouldn't be over 100 parallax marking on either scope... so they are both not in spec.

[LR1955]

I'm interested to know also... though when the erector went out the only reason they listed was "internal damaged part"

I'm really leaning towards the nx8. I can't afford the 3k actar, but the nx8 8-32x56 is right in that goldilocks zone of features, glass, and price. Still doing my research and will visit a few stores to try some hands on before deciding then buying at best price I can find.

Also... from my point of view, though I can work with 1 scope out of the 2, a target closer than 100 yards in shouldn't be over 100 parallax marking on either scope... so they are both not in spec.

ZE:

I have never used a optic whose parallax adjustment corresponded to the actual range. This includes the three Nightforce optics I own. Can't even say some were close. However, it doesn't mean I couldn't adjust out the parallax anyway. We were taught to ignore the numbers on the scope and adjust it until the target was clear to the eye with no movement when shifting the head left or right, up or down.

Most likely your optics are well within spec. Its just that given a bunch of confounding variables found in the real world that you can't prove it.

LR-55

[Zeneffect]

Well... very much like measuring top dead center on an engine, I can measure the degree of rotation needed to focus on a static object at a known distance. I doubt I will be within 30% of each other which is concerning. I think that should give me the relative data to show that one is clearly not like the other (pun). When sub 90 yards is past 100 on one and past 250 on another, and I can't focus on a ~400 yard target with one of them.... something not right and the difference between the 2 on just the turrets is enough. I'll leave it ip to vortex to figure it all out. Venom is made in China btw... can't say I recommend them.

[LR1955]

Well... very much like measuring top dead center on an engine, I can measure the degree of rotation needed to focus on a static object at a known distance. I doubt I will be within 30% of each other which is concerning. I think that should give me the relative data to show that one is clearly not like the other (pun). When sub 90 yards is past 100 on one and past 250 on another, and I can't focus on a ~400 yard target with one of them.... something not right and the difference between the 2 on just the turrets is enough. I'll leave it ip to vortex to figure it all out. Venom is made in China btw... can't say I recommend them.

ZE:

Sorry, I meant to say I have three Nightforce optics and don't even know if their parallax adjustment has numbers on them that supposedly correspond to distance. All I do is adjust until the target is clear and never really look at the setting.

I have also had a number of optics with a objective lens that adjusts for focus with numbers in yards and none of them were even close. One of them is a Unertl that must have the best glass I have ever looked through. Impressive even by today's standards. The numbers on the objective have never come close to reality.

Well, if that is the reason you want to ditch the Vortex optics, I am afraid you won't find other makes to be any different.

Would consider buying your broken optic but I just don't have a need for another one.

LR-55