Well.. that just happened. ATF classification ruling that ArmBrace = SBR

[AZHTfreak]

The amnesty could be a trap.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggOmUXxVWY

IS a Fudd trap...

[LRRPF52]

So for everyone that thought they were getting a “free Tax stamp” to exercise their rights, it was really just a scheme to get you to self-report non-felonious conduct ruled as felonies to actual felons with badges in West Virginia ATF office.

They will then just forward your info to your regional Federal Building ATF office.

It’s time we end these traitors and their criminal misconduct that is a clear and egregious campaign of offenses against the Constitution.

My State legislators and local Sheriff are of that mind, as are many other State and Federal Representatives who actually have legal and enumerated powers under the Constitution, unlike ATF.

That’s the real problem in a nutshell. We’re either a Nation of laws, or we’re not.

There can’t be conflicting bureaucratic entities who are a law unto themselves, specifically tasked with violating the Bill of Rights because some dirtbag Mafia Prohibition-era DNC Chairman became AG under FDR, and submitted this pile of excrement to a drunken Congress in 1934 to go after the organized crime gangs they created with the Volstead Act.

[grayfox]

The ATF is taking the same playbook as the Illinois gubmint.
Register first, then take away.
Which all is a shame b/c I'm from the midwest and truly saddened to see such commie-like activity coming from the middle of America.
"We're from the government and we're here to incarcerate you..."
oops, I mean "help you -- into those leg irons..."

[ARMYEOD]

One of the local shops took all their braced weapons off display. Not selling them. We are all going to wait out for 60 days to see what happens in the courts. This BS will be thrown out.

[LRRPF52]

Imagine proposing an administrative “ruling" where the merits of the case include:

* ATF Firearms Technology Branch classifying millions of pistols accordingly since 2012

* Treasury accepting millions of individual Federal Excise Taxes for those pistols under CFR 26

* SCOTUS recently ruling that administrative agencies can’t make laws, only Congress has the law-making power (BRUEN)

* SCOTUS Heller decision upholding the Bill of Rights specific to pistols and keeping and bearing them inside and outside the home for protection

* ATF attempting to use ex post facto to retroactively regulate millions of firearms in circulation in Violation of Article 1, Section 9 of the US Constitution

* ATF compelling millions of law-abiding citizens to violate their own rights and the tax code under threat of force and prosecution

* Violations of USC 18, Sections 241 and 242

Section 241:

If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or

If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured—

They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

Section 242:

Whoever, under color of any law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom, willfully subjects any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or to different punishments, pains, or penalties, on account of such person being an alien, or by reason of his color, or race, than are prescribed for the punishment of citizens, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if bodily injury results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

* Direct violation of the 2nd Amendment

* Threats of violating the 4th Amendment

* Compelling people to violate the 5th Amendment

* Direct violations of the 9th and 10th Amendments

Just imagine trying to go before a court and explaining how you came to make a ruling, given all of the above facts.

[LRRPF52]

[video=youtube_share;fKRrAYgei9E]https://youtu.be/fKRrAYgei9E[/video]

There are a lot of attorneys out there making all kinds of click-bait videos, with very little substance to them.

This guy has far more experience and interesting insights, since he has dealt with Supreme Court rulings in his career.

Constitutional attorney Mark W. Smith, a member of the United States Supreme Court Bar, a professor, a frequent Fox News guest, and a New York Times bestselling author.

[Hansel&Grendel]

[video=youtube_share;fKRrAYgei9E]https://youtu.be/fKRrAYgei9E[/video]

There are a lot of attorneys out there making all kinds of click-bait videos, with very little substance to them.

This guy has far more experience and interesting insights, since he has dealt with Supreme Court rulings in his career.

Constitutional attorney Mark W. Smith, a member of the United States Supreme Court Bar, a professor, a frequent Fox News guest, and a New York Times bestselling author.

Interesting arguments by Mr. Smith who states that, in Heller 2, Judge Kavanaugh in his dissent argues that the registration of Second Amendment protected firearms (including semi-automatic rifles let alone pistol braced handguns as being the issue here) violates "the text, history and tradition test" applied to modern day gun laws that in fact require said registration of certain firearms under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934.

There are people who have served time or are currently serving time in federal prison for the possession of one or more unregistered SBRs found in violation of the NFA. One would think that such cases adjudicated with a Judgment and Commitment Order remanding an individual to the custody of the USMS to serve federal prison time would have wound their way on Appeal to the higher Courts, even SCOTUS, to decide once and for all whether the NFA with its registration requirements of SBRs, among other registration requirements (such as suppressors), is unconstitutional.

The prescribed prison time in felony violation of the NFA is what concerns and, quite frankly, scares people into compliance - even in this matter. Will the Courts intervene with a Stay Order regarding ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F pending Judicial review? Even if the Courts do rule, will the Courts (ultimately SCOTUS I suppose), take on the broader issue of the registration requirements of the NFA and thereby render the NFA as unconstitutional in violation of the Second Amendment? Or, will the Courts just decide on the merits of 2021R-08F that require registration of pistol-braced ARs?

Lastly, the GOP had significant majority control of the Presidency, the Senate and the House during the first 6 years of the George W. Bush Presidential era. They did nothing during that time to legislatively deal with gun control issues (including hearing protection afforded by suppressors). The same for the first 2 years of President Trump when the GOP controlled of course the Presidency, the Senate and the House.

It may be a stretch to think that then Judge Kavanaugh's minority dissent in Heller 2 will dictate the outcome of 2021R-08F in the lower Courts, let alone in a timely manner if a Stay Order is not issued within the 120 days allotted within 2021R-08F.

However, we can hope.

[biodsl]

Lastly, the GOP had significant majority control of the Presidency, the Senate and the House during the first 6 years of the George W. Bush Presidential era. They did nothing during that time to legislatively deal with gun control issues (including hearing protection afforded by suppressors). The same for the first 2 years of President Trump when the GOP controlled of course the Presidency, the Senate and the House.

If there's one thing we've learned the past decade, it's that the GOPe/establishment/Uniparty are not conservatives. They have no interest in tax reform, immigration reform, balanced budgets or guns.

[grayfox]

I was wondering when all of this info would be framed into a federal suit in the appropriate district (ie, NOT in Illinois, NY or leftist-coast for example), so it could be used in court to overturn the latest and possibly strip the ATF of its power....

[ARMYEOD]

So here is my course of action.

Wait 60 days to see what happens to this abortion in the courts.
Make a decision after 60 days.
Keep watching "Washington Gun Law" videos because that lawyer stays on top of this issue. The waiting strategy is his suggestion. It is a good one.

As I mentioned in another post, a local gun shop has removed all braced firearms from the showroom.

They do not know what to do other than wait for a while before making any decisions.

I moved to Alabama about five years ago from PA for many reasons, one of which is that AL is more gun friendly than PA.

We are back to States Rights here.

[LRRPF52]

Interesting arguments by Mr. Smith who states that, in Heller 2, Judge Kavanaugh in his dissent argues that the registration of Second Amendment protected firearms (including semi-automatic rifles let alone pistol braced handguns as being the issue here) violates "the text, history and tradition test" applied to modern day gun laws that in fact require said registration of certain firearms under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934.

There are people who have served time or are currently serving time in federal prison for the possession of one or more unregistered SBRs found in violation of the NFA. One would think that such cases adjudicated with a Judgment and Commitment Order remanding an individual to the custody of the USMS to serve federal prison time would have wound their way on Appeal to the higher Courts, even SCOTUS, to decide once and for all whether the NFA with its registration requirements of SBRs, among other registration requirements (such as suppressors), is unconstitutional.

The prescribed prison time in felony violation of the NFA is what concerns and, quite frankly, scares people into compliance - even in this matter. Will the Courts intervene with a Stay Order regarding ATF Final Rule 2021R-08F pending Judicial review? Even if the Courts do rule, will the Courts (ultimately SCOTUS I suppose), take on the broader issue of the registration requirements of the NFA and thereby render the NFA as unconstitutional in violation of the Second Amendment? Or, will the Courts just decide on the merits of 2021R-08F that require registration of pistol-braced ARs?

Lastly, the GOP had significant majority control of the Presidency, the Senate and the House during the first 6 years of the George W. Bush Presidential era. They did nothing during that time to legislatively deal with gun control issues (including hearing protection afforded by suppressors). The same for the first 2 years of President Trump when the GOP controlled of course the Presidency, the Senate and the House.

It may be a stretch to think that then Judge Kavanaugh's minority dissent in Heller 2 will dictate the outcome of 2021R-08F in the lower Courts, let alone in a timely manner if a Stay Order is not issued within the 120 days allotted within 2021R-08F.

However, we can hope.

Look at the 10 years of pistol FET classification and taxation precedence, which I mentioned and didn’t see anyone talking about. He addressed that in this video.

Same for imports. You have to look at the evidentiary chain of classification and transactions, all backed with FET paid by manufacturers, in conjunction with the ATF determination letters dating back to Nov 26, 2012.

When Alex Bosco sent his initial sample for a determination letter, he didn’t have any manufacturing capacity, so he went to Sig.

Sig’s attorneys didn’t just accept that letter, and requested another clarification to satisfy their legal requirements before they moved forward with manufacturing the Sig Brace.

Then in 2014, ATF responded thusly to a request from a Colorado police department:

That all changed in March 2014 with the ATF’s response to a letter from Greenwood, Colorado, police department Sgt. Joe Bradley who wondered if shooting a Sig Brace-equipped pistol from the shoulder would reclassify the pistol into an SBR.

“Certain firearms accessories such as the Sig Stability Brace have not been classified by [ATF] as shoulder stocks and, therefore, using the brace improperly does not constitute a design change,” the ATF told Bradley. “Using such an accessory improperly would not change the classification of the weapon per Federal law.”

So there has been a 10-year record of FETs collected on these classified as pistols, numerous official determination letters from ATF to private citizens, large manufacturers, and LEOs.

ATF’s argument now is basically that we’ll just pretend that the determination letters don’t exist, that 10 years of FET taxes collected never happened, and that these have always been a totally different classification of firearm under the NFA.

That’s a really weak set of arguments from a legal perspective.

The totality of the evidence in how ATF and Treasury has classified and taxed these pistols for the past 10 years fundamentally destroys any arguments they are now trying to make.

It seems clear they are under pressure to do something in the way of anti-2A legislation from the WH more than anything, and the ATF Director and his staff gambled that this was a great way to do that.

[LRRPF52]

If there's one thing we've learned the past decade, it's that the GOPe/establishment/Uniparty are not conservatives. They have no interest in tax reform, immigration reform, balanced budgets or guns.

A former K Street lobbyist wrote a book called This Town, where the main claim of the book is this:

There’s no such thing as Democrats and Republicans in DC, only millionaires doing the business of billionaires.

[Hansel&Grendel]

Look at the 10 years of pistol FET classification and taxation precedence, which I mentioned and didn’t see anyone talking about. He addressed that in this video.

Same for imports. You have to look at the evidentiary chain of classification and transactions, all backed with FET paid by manufacturers, in conjunction with the ATF determination letters dating back to Nov 26, 2012.

When Alex Bosco sent his initial sample for a determination letter, he didn’t have any manufacturing capacity, so he went to Sig.

Sig’s attorneys didn’t just accept that letter, and requested another clarification to satisfy their legal requirements before they moved forward with manufacturing the Sig Brace.

Then in 2014, ATF responded thusly to a request from a Colorado police department:



So there has been a 10-year record of FETs collected on these classified as pistols, numerous official determination letters from ATF to private citizens, large manufacturers, and LEOs.

ATF’s argument now is basically that we’ll just pretend that the determination letters don’t exist, that 10 years of FET taxes collected never happened, and that these have always been a totally different classification of firearm under the NFA.

That’s a really weak set of arguments from a legal perspective.

The totality of the evidence in how ATF and Treasury has classified and taxed these pistols for the past 10 years fundamentally destroys any arguments they are now trying to make.

It seems clear they are under pressure to do something in the way of anti-2A legislation from the WH more than anything, and the ATF Director and his staff gambled that this was a great way to do that.

Well said. Excellent points about the collection of FETs on classified pistols and the attempt to now re-classify them as SBRs subject to NFA.

When I was active Federal LE in Southern California and then Washington, D.C., the main emphasis of ATF at least in those locales was "G and G" (Gangs and Guns). How times have changed.

[LRRPF52]

It’s dangerous going after actual criminals who have a propensity for violence.

It’s much easier and enticing for incompetent, overweight or small-statured hires (who would be slapped around by many recidivist offenders), to go after law-abiding citizens who just roll over and don’t put up a fight.

Our fight is for restoration of inalienable rights by birth, that the Constitution restricted government from infringing on.

What we have today are just a few scraps left over.

People are trained from early childhood to beg permission to exercise their rights in a classroom environment. ("Teacher, may I please go to the bathroom?" "Teacher, may I please speak?” etc.)

Those servile habits are trained during the developmental years, so that people don’t "get uppity" later on in adulthood asserting their rights.

Notice how US Civics and Constitutional Law have been purged from the school system.

“Unelected bureaucrat holdover enforcer from Prohibition, may I please configure my firearm for home defense of my family? Is this length, plastic part, grip, aiming system, muzzle device, etc. acceptable to you?

ATF has been a mess for decades. Look at their EEO violation and retaliation/retribution case files internally with their own employees.

Then look at their ongoing turf and evidence war between ATF Bomb and FBI Bomb.

ATF is a huge and abhorrent stain on the United States, like a festering, pungent, puss-filled tumor that needs excision quickly before it spreads anymore.

[Hansel&Grendel]

My entire LE career was going after criminals for a propensity for violence during years spent on drug task force and joint terrorism task force investigations. Which leads to augment your comments. I was trained by old school agents, many being military veterans. I worked with ATF special agents who were also old school, i.e., patriots who often were military veterans and saw federal gun laws as a means to help dismantle violent criminal groups. Not what we have today in several instances.

In other words, generational differences influenced investigative approaches. Shortly after 9-11, I recall working with a new Ivy League educated FBI agent. This was after another terrorist attack against U.S. interests. The FBI agent commented that the United States needs to examine itself as to why we're making certain Middle Eastern terror groups mad at us. I wanted to Alice Kramden him to the moon but chose not to.

Fast forward to where we are today. While retired, I am still beneficiary as to how things are in the Federal LE workplace. It has become worse than when I retired 4 years ago. The "woke mindset" is alive and unfortunately well in Federal LE. No doubt that the "wokeness" has infiltrated the ATF to a degree as it has numerous other Federal LE agencies. Again, much being attributable to generational differences.

Now being a FFL, I help to educate people about the Second Amendment along with promoting the Second Amendment by going out-of-pocket to a good degree. A lot of us are doing our parts as patriots. I hope that it's enough.

[PVBoom]

The amnesty could be a trap.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggOmUXxVWY

This much should be obvious. We are dealing with an administration and DoJ which does not see a legislative path forward to accomplish their gun control agenda. So it's time to attempt end runs around the system with DoJ/ATF actions. We already have an institution with no qualms about distorting facts to pursue legal actions which also moves at glacial speeds to process some but not all registrations.

They have stated they will proceed with enforcement actions after the 120 day period is over. If they are hit with a flood of registrations for braced pistols they might not process all before 120 days. Either because of the load or by intention. At that point a bunch of people will be told to surrender their illegal SBRs. I don't expect more than summary fines and confiscation in order to get "weapons off the street" and prevent tons of court cases.

Add 3 more "mass" shootings and another push for gun control. Woohoo, it's "assault pistol" time next!

At this point, rushing to get a free SBR stamp seems as naive as starting a land war in Asia.

Remove braces, relocate them off property (although these days I don't think constructive intent will float well in most courts) , shoot something else and wait. More states will follow with laws legalizing braces, SBRs and suppressors. I think our best chance of gutting SBRs from the NFA will arise from ensuing brace legal challenges.

[montana]

This much should be obvious. We are dealing with an administration and DoJ which does not see a legislative path forward to accomplish their gun control agenda. So it's time to attempt end runs around the system with DoJ/ATF actions. We already have an institution with no qualms about distorting facts to pursue legal actions which also moves at glacial speeds to process some but not all registrations.

They have stated they will proceed with enforcement actions after the 120 day period is over. If they are hit with a flood of registrations for braced pistols they might not process all before 120 days. Either because of the load or by intention. At that point a bunch of people will be told to surrender their illegal SBRs. I don't expect more than summary fines and confiscation in order to get "weapons off the street" and prevent tons of court cases.

Add 3 more "mass" shootings and another push for gun control. Woohoo, it's "assault pistol" time next!

At this point, rushing to get a free SBR stamp seems as naive as starting a land war in Asia.

Remove braces, relocate them off property (although these days I don't think constructive intent will float well in most courts) , shoot something else and wait. More states will follow with laws legalizing braces, SBRs and suppressors. I think our best chance of gutting SBRs from the NFA will arise from ensuing brace legal challenges.

Many of these corrupt laws are vague for a reason. They can pick and choose who and how to punish. I believe it was an ex-FBI agent who admitted it was not the actually verdict of guilt they want, but the fear of the process to keep people in line.. Defending oneself can take years, destroy life savings and reputations..In the end, a person can be found innocent and yet have their lives shattered..

[mtnlvr]

Many of these corrupt laws are vague for a reason. They can pick and choose who and how to punish. I believe it was an ex-FBI agent who admitted it was not the actually verdict of guilt they want, but the fear of the process to keep people in line.. Defending oneself can take years, destroy life savings and reputations..In the end, a person can be found innocent and yet have their lives shattered..

Agreed. I know of someone's firearm that was sent to the ATF for review. It was a kit built rifle with all original parts. An ATF agent hand delivered it back to him with no mention of 922r violation. I guess they chose not to look as it was too much work? Or they chose not to pursue for other reason.

[Clintster]

Heck, if we all become felons, it can't be too bad as proven by these upstanding citizens (age 22 & 23) They only have 85 between them and are still out committing armed robbery.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-deliv...ying-video

[LRRPF52]

My entire LE career was going after criminals for a propensity for violence during years spent on drug task force and joint terrorism task force investigations. Which leads to augment your comments. I was trained by old school agents, many being military veterans. I worked with ATF special agents who were also old school, i.e., patriots who often were military veterans and saw federal gun laws as a means to help dismantle violent criminal groups. Not what we have today in several instances.

In other words, generational differences influenced investigative approaches. Shortly after 9-11, I recall working with a new Ivy League educated FBI agent. This was after another terrorist attack against U.S. interests. The FBI agent commented that the United States needs to examine itself as to why we're making certain Middle Eastern terror groups mad at us. I wanted to Alice Kramden him to the moon but chose not to.

Fast forward to where we are today. While retired, I am still beneficiary as to how things are in the Federal LE workplace. It has become worse than when I retired 4 years ago. The "woke mindset" is alive and unfortunately well in Federal LE. No doubt that the "wokeness" has infiltrated the ATF to a degree as it has numerous other Federal LE agencies. Again, much being attributable to generational differences.

Now being a FFL, I help to educate people about the Second Amendment along with promoting the Second Amendment by going out-of-pocket to a good degree. A lot of us are doing our parts as patriots. I hope that it's enough.

Check out Clean Up ATF.org sometime if you want to peek under ATF’s skirt some more.

They’ve had major problems for decades. When they threaten one of their main agents who was UC with the motorcycle gangs, by saying they will get cartel informants/assets to film his wife being raped before they kill her and his kids, burn his house down, and stick the murder/arson charges on him, you know they went off the deep end long ago.

Their whole focus on the motorcycle gangs is based on the interstate commerce argument the AG and Asst AG made in 1934 before Congress. In addition to weaponizing Congress’s power to tax as a way around the Bill of Rights and Constitution, they also suggested using Interstate Commerce laws to charge hardened criminal gangsters and bank-robbers from transporting firearms across State lines was another legal tool to be enacted.

The thinking behind AG Cummings and Asst AG Keenan’s arguments in 1934 were entirely unconstitutional, and created a weird set of regulations about interstate transport that only hurt the people. The idea was to make it easier to arrest and prosecute suspects who were traveling over State lines in possession of firearms, which is part of the right to keep and bear. They didn’t like it because some of the cases built against gangsters (who were moving from one safe house to another across State lines) were pretty flimsy and didn’t result in the convictions they wanted.

It criminalizes the conduct of the entire citizenry just to catch a tiny gaggle of gangsters and bank-robbers in early 1930s America.

Interstate Commerce clauses are meant to promote, unify, and standardize trade between the States, not bottleneck or restrict it. That whole argument is fundamentally flawed and openly so.

ATF and BoN/DEA were big on that back in the 1970s and 1980s since DOJ could use the same provisions to prosecute gangs for smuggling.

The problem is, it’s a tempting tool for LEOs and DAs to use to penalize the citizens for normal and lawful conduct protected by the Constitution, since we don’t have a criminal standard of law like in other countries, despite ATF’s and DOJ’s attempts to change that into more of a police state.