Is this legal? Transfer of weapons and explosives to a terrorist organization? ATF approves?
Quoted from a news article
"The seized equipment includes more than 2,000 armored vehicles, and up to 40 aircraft, reported Reuters, citing an intelligence assessment. Everything that hasnt been destroyed is the Talibans now,
Wall Street Journal
"Scores of videos have emerged of Taliban fighters rejoicing near abandoned American helicopters, carrying U.S.-supplied M24 sniper rifles and M18 assault weapons, stacking other small arms and materiel in unending piles and driving Humvees and other U.S.-made military trucks.
The Taliban have seized airplanes, tanks and artillery from Afghan outposts and from evacuating U.S. personnel, revealing one of the heavier costs of a U.S. troop withdrawal amid a collapse of Afghanistans government and army.
How does this happen? Is it too late to get my share? Mind Boggling!
Bjorn Wrote:I didn't think one would have to go to the war college to figure out that we needed to get our civilians out, then our equipment, and then our troops.
True, but it was the speed of the capitulation that took the senior leadership by surprise. And it is not as if we left gear for them to take, it was the ANA switching sides with all their gear which had been handed to them on a plate. If the senior leadership had listened to the troops on the ground over the past decade instead of focusing on spin and their own careers they would have, should have appreciated this was going to happen. Meanwhile, the Talibs were biding their time both in Afghan and Pakistan wearing the Coalition down using a classic insurgency strategy; waiting patiently just for this day.
The saving grace is a lot of that equipment needs servicing to keep it functioning. If they don't sell, or give it away to Russia and China (or do a deal that those guys service it and train them) it will be more trophy spoils than useful. I am talking about light attack aircraft and even vehicles. At the small arms level, sure, they are resourceful, but hopeless fighters. By the same token they so willingly switched sides overnight they will lack the will to coordinate and fight again.
Biden could have consulted his coalition partners and planned this a bit better, but to be fair this withdrawal had to happen sooner or later. Indefinitely pouring money and lives into a morally bankrupt country that is still in the stone-age was just a drain. They had democracy handed to them on a plate and rejected it. The unwillingness of the ANA and tribal warlords to fight for their own country says it all.
Thousands of NOD's (night vision) will be a game changer but with a few years of abuse they will break. Most of that gear will not be of much concern to anyone except their neighbors.
08-22-2021, 01:03 AM (This post was last modified: 08-22-2021, 01:42 AM by montana.)
Klem Wrote:True, but it was the speed of the capitulation that took the senior leadership by surprise. And it is not as if we left gear for them to take, it was the ANA switching sides with all their gear which had been handed to them on a plate. If the senior leadership had listened to the troops on the ground over the past decade instead of focusing on spin and their own careers they would have, should have appreciated this was going to happen. Meanwhile, the Talibs were biding their time both in Afghan and Pakistan wearing the Coalition down using a classic insurgency strategy; waiting patiently just for this day.
The saving grace is a lot of that equipment needs servicing to keep it functioning. If they don't sell, or give it away to Russia and China (or do a deal that those guys service it and train them) it will be more trophy spoils than useful. I am talking about light attack aircraft and even vehicles. At the small arms level, sure, they are resourceful, but hopeless fighters. By the same token they so willingly switched sides overnight they will lack the will to coordinate and fight again.
Biden could have consulted his coalition partners and planned this a bit better, but to be fair this withdrawal had to happen sooner or later. Indefinitely pouring money and lives into a morally bankrupt country that is still in the stone-age was just a drain. They had democracy handed to them on a plate and rejected it. The unwillingness of the ANA and tribal warlords to fight for their own country says it all.
Thousands of NOD's (night vision) will be a game changer but with a few years of abuse they will break. Most of that gear will not be of much concern to anyone except their neighbors.
The 'Graveyard of Empires' strikes again.
This fiasco is all on Biden and his woke chief of staff. A lizard with a brain stem would know better than to pull the forces out before removing all non combatants and sensitive equipment. I won't even get into the part of why a winter retreat would have prevented this cluster @$#%..This was a purely political decision that back fired into Biden's face.. The armed forces recruiting commercials explains how our military has devolved into a failed social experiment...The past https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLKQUoykE1g Today:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIYGFSONKbk
Klem, if your government ever lets you out from underneath your beds again and you decide to make a trip to the states, I'd advise that you keep your travels to big cities in blue states.
StoneHendge Wrote:Klem, if your government ever lets you out from underneath your beds again and you decide to make a trip to the states, I'd advise that you keep your travels to big cities in blue states.
Mate, thanks for your unsolicited advice and ignorance regarding my country.
Getting back to the topic, we had to get out of Afghan eventually. There are bigger fish to fry on the horizon and you don't want to be tying up troops and money on a failed quest with no clear mission, let alone end goal in sight. Try to look beyond your country's politics at the facts. The equipment that is now in the Taliban hands is not because you guys left it there to be found. It was the locals handing over the stuff you gave them. Handed to them originally in good faith along with training, but they let you down. Groups of tribal forces and the ANA; whose leadership were rarely paying their soldiers while lining their own pockets. Traditional Shia vs. Sunni Islam subordinated by ethnic rivalry - Pashtun vs. the Hazari minority. Then you have borderline criminals running the partner forces of our coalition. Even the Afhgan government was in on it. Karzai insisting on coalition forces only operating in daylight, plus his catch-and-release policy confounding efforts to bring bad guys to justice. We were uncommitted to total war fighting with one hand tied behind our back, using rules based ethics. These guys were gaming us. Throw down their radio put their hands up and wait it out. Say nothing and get paid $200 on release.
In hindsight what would you have done? Not the evacuation, we're talking about military hardware now in Talib hands. Convenient to say you have taken it forcefully back from the ANA while telling them you are about to leave? Those guys were never going to embrace democracy anda re as mercenary as they come.
As for 'hiding under the bed' - you've lost me completely on that one.
Klem Wrote:Mate, thanks for your unsolicted advice and ignorance regarding my country.
As for 'hiding under the bed' - you've lost me completely on that one.
And thank you for your ignorance regarding mine. You clearly miss the point. It was not about getting out of Afghanistan, it was how it was done..
You should be aware that your government's policies in regards to the Chinese Virus and the populations acquiescence have made Australia into a laughing stock in the areas of the US that I advised you to avoid. At least until Biden turned us into a bigger laughingstock.
Lemonaid's thread is about military hardware falling into the hands of the Taliban - Not the speed of exit, or your own divisive politics, or Covid in Australia.
Unsure why my government's efforts to keep the virus out is even an issue on a gun forum. But by all means have a good laugh at how there is no Covid where I live; no masks, no social distancing, no fear. How about you? Fully vaccinated I hope.
08-22-2021, 04:44 AM (This post was last modified: 08-22-2021, 04:56 AM by Klem.)
StoneHendge Wrote:I was just looking out for you with my advice.
Is that right...
Debating the legality of arming the Taliban - the US did not arm the Taliban, the turncoat ANA did by giving up their arms. Some of their air assets have ended up over the borders as they fled, but some they just gave to the enemy. There is some hardware that was left by your forces, for example scores of vehicles without the ignition keys in ANA hands, now seized by the Taliban. You can cry negligence perhaps but it was never the intention by any of you guys to arm the Taliban. On the contrary, your forces are the most professional I have ever worked with. No doubt they are doing the best they can in difficult circumstances.
Good luck when you catch the Virus. Unlike other countries there should be enough oxygen. I'm fully vaccinated and here it has nothing to do with politics, just health.
08-22-2021, 05:11 AM (This post was last modified: 08-22-2021, 05:16 AM by montana.)
Klem, I was against the way this war was fought from the begging and took quite a bit of heat for stating it on this forum. To say or even believe the NSA did not know the government in Afghanistan was going to fail is foolish. I don't believe this for one moment. Some how it is A-OK to leave billions of dollars of modern military arms in a nation we knew was going to fail, controlled by a brutal cult that enslaves women and puts them into an unbelievable hell, but allowing citizens to have a forearm brace is intolerable. We have to ban ammunition from Russia because of an assassination, yet we can destroy our own domestic oil industry, close a pipe line down while supporting a Russian pipe line and creating a better oil market for the very same Russians. This is nothing more than another attempt by the left to disarm and destroy our 2ndA and other Constitutional rights..The very same people want to shut down businesses, schools, and ruin more peoples lives to slow the spread of the delta variant, yet opened the southern border and ship the untested,covid infected aliens all over the nation under the guise of compassion. I guess it has nothing to do with diluting the red states with future dependent dem voters..Of course biden announced that any Cuban refuges would be denied citizenship after their anti communist protest in Cuba?? I guess the majority of those refugees being anti communist had nothing to do with it either..Talk about a forehead slap.. Yet you casually call it politics and seem to give the slime responsible an easy pass by asking what would we would have done differently. We had already answered that question above..
"We took the keys" I can see Biden saying that at his next presser.
There's only one way to get natural immunity. And mine was the original Wuhan flavor, not the watered down Indian Variant that has a death rate on par with the Common Cold.
And on a lighthearted note, it appears that the AK vs. AR debate should finally be over. The Taliban ditched their AK's in favor of out M-4's faster than Joe Biden can say "come sit on my lap".
Well, it's our leadership as well as yours with difficult questions to answer. We jumped on board for little more than being asked, and of course keeping the alliance lubricated. Same as in previous conflicts. What business the Taliban has in Australia is anyone's guess. At least we don't have any brace problems here - if they were for sale!
SH
Classic - note the photos coming out of there with the Talibs holding their new AR's on a down angle with finger outside the trigger guard - Now, who taught them that? WE DID!
Well, it's our leadership as well as yours with difficult questions to answer. We jumped on board for little more than being asked, and of course keeping the alliance lubricated. Same as in previous conflicts. What business the Taliban has in Australia is anyone's guess. At least we don't have any brace problems here - if they were for sale!
SH
Classic - note the photos coming out of there with the Talibs holding their new AR's on a down angle with finger outside the trigger guard - Now, who taught them that? WE DID!
.
Klem:
We stayed in that place to deny terrorists an entire country where they could plan, rehearse, and use as a base to export their violence. They will crash airplanes or detonate dirty bombs / bio weapons in Australia as readily as the USA. Harder because you do not share a border with a government that doesn't like you very much. And I don't see your Government allowing anyone to enter the country for any reason without as much as a basic check to see if they are not criminals or have Covid.
Maybe you trust your leadership to deal with difficult questions but we don't and rightly so. Our leadership has done exactly what Stonehenge and Montana have stated.
Anyone who believes Biden and his ilk that they didn't see it coming is absolutely insane. We were watching it on the news two months ago with reports of province after province falling to the Talaban. That was on the national news. You telling us you believe Biden wasn't told? Of course he was but he probably didn't understand it was happening due to his dementia.
No way anyone will say we could not have gotten our people out and destroyed most if not all of that gear and have been gone two weeks ago if we wanted. And it wouldn't have been difficult.
I say get out and leave them to their own devices. The Taliban may think they've won the insurgency but in about a month they will realise there's no food and no international bank wants to lend them money. Those machine guns will not be worth squat once the ammunition runs out. The Taliban has inherited a basket case of a country with no GDP. The current exit chaos will be quickly forgotten. Replaced by famine, unrest, herding goats and eating dates.
08-22-2021, 02:21 PM (This post was last modified: 08-22-2021, 02:41 PM by montana.)
Klem Wrote:Guys,
I say get out and leave them to their own devices. The Taliban may think they've won the insurgency but in about a month they will realise there's no food and no international bank wants to lend them money. Those machine guns will not be worth squat once the ammunition runs out. The Taliban has inherited a basket case of a country with no GDP. The current exit chaos will be quickly forgotten. Replaced by famine, unrest, herding goats and eating dates.
The Taliban are sitting on a trillion dollars of rare metals and the largest opium farm in the world. Communist China has already moved in to give aide and to be a helpful neighbor. I'm sure the rare metals and resources has nothing to do with it, wink,wink..Those so called goat herders were never defeated and they didn't need F-15's and nuclear bombs as biden told American gun owners would need. All the Taliban needed was biden. By the way, Pakistan has and will provide all the ammunition and support the Taliban would ever need to keep in power. Now we can all wait and see which terrorist organization will be the next to hit the west..Of course they won't have a hard time getting to the US, since they are already here courtesy of biden and his refusal to vet anyone. Then the focus will be on gun control or violating other Constitutional rights, as focusing on the individual would be racist and xenophobic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqq-JOuTn5o
We stayed in that place to deny terrorists an entire country where they could plan, rehearse, and use as a base to export their violence They will crash airplanes or detonate dirty bombs / bio weapons in Australia as readily as the USA
Our leadership has done exactly what Stonehenge and Montana have stated.
Anyone who believes Biden and his ilk that they didn't see it coming is absolutely insane. We were watching it on the news two months ago with reports of province after province falling to the Talaban. That was on the national news. You telling us you believe Biden wasn't told? Of course he was but he probably didn't understand it was happening due to his dementia.
No way anyone will say we could not have gotten our people out and destroyed most if not all of that gear and have been gone two weeks ago if we wanted. And it wouldn't have been difficult.
The only other things I would add to '55 and Montana's etc is that
1. Hidinbiden and his suck-ups knew but DIDN'T CARE.
2. china is already coming in there, yes, one for the rare earths but 2 (and this includes Iran and maybe Russia) they are coming in to "help" with maintenance, upkeep and most of all reverse engineering of much of the hi-tech stuff in the tanks, choppers, drones etc. To steal/co-opt it for their uses and to try and find weaknesses in the existing. Totalitarian hardly ever invents its own, it mostly steals from others.
Not to mention that they will gladly help export opium to the West to continue to flood drugs in.
I for one, and doubtless other Americans on here, have seen this mentality develop over a few decades of leftist garbage infil, and sorry for how it is tragically wrecking the greatest country in the world. Moral decline always hurts people. Always.
Plus we need a spiritual revival, even DeToqueville observed ~200 years ago, "when America ceases to be good, it will cease to be great."
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
"Down the floor, out the door, Go Brandon Go!!!!!"
On the rare earth point I do agree with you. It remains to be seen but it does look like China is maneuvering to take advantage of their lithium deposits. I doubt China's experience will be any better than any other empire that has sought to subjugate that lot. For sure, they will crank up the opium production again, because they are not exporting anything else. In the meantime they have to feed their people and keep control.
As for Afghanistan being a safe haven, that mission was sorted two decades ago, and there are plenty of other havens around the world that the US finds more difficult to deal with. Iran recently flew a drone into a UK registered ship in the Gulf, and the 9/11 attackers were all Saudi's. Pakistan has been harboring terrorists in the tribal lands for years. Plenty of other places to launch an attack from. And like you say, a lot of western countries have let in a lot of questionable asylum seekers in recent years.
The chaos of a barely planned exit should not be conflated with the strategic value of that moonscape, or with your own gun laws. My thoughts are that local politics should be removed from the strategic geopolitical picture. Regardless of who is the President what are you going to do and where is the existential threat?
GF
As for bringing religion into it ('spiritual revival') - that is the cause of this problem.
