500 Yard NRA F-Class

[65GbySeven]

There is a range about 30 minutes from the house that has NRA 500 Yard F Class matches the first Saturday of every month. I always had hunting rifles and have never built/owned a match rifle.

Two Questions:
1. Does anyone use 6.5 Grendel for 500ish yard matches?
2. What rifle would you build/buy to use 6.5 Grendel to compete in a F Class Match.

I realize these are broad open questions. I am looking for suggestions on rifle round combinations. Today, without a custom rifle, best I can come up with is the CZ MTR with a handload 108 or 123 Lapua Scenar.

All comments and opinions are appreciated.

[A5BLASTER]

If I was going to shoot that match this is what I would bring.

Cz varmint grendel in a bell and carlson stock
Running handloads of 123 eld-m's.

Basicly that's what I own and shot now as a bolt grendel.

Should be a thread somewheres on here about my rifle if you want to see what I'm talking about with the rifle.

I don't shoot competition, so that's my best advice.

[Lemonaid]

Not an exact match but at 600 yards and also a good read. http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...(big-post)

[lazyengineer]

I posted a thread about using it at NRA 600 Yard MidRange. You dont have to compete F-Class, you can enter it as AR-Tactical class (new) and shoot from a standard bipod.

[ricsmall]

Rebarrel a howa mini with the heaviest contour 24” barrel of the highest quality you can fit on that action, chambered/throated for the specific bullet you want to shoot set at your desired COAL, and drop into a quality chassis.

Or if mark at PF has any of those Grendel bolt guns ready to roll I would go that route, in a chassis.

[Klem]

65,

I competed in 1000yd F-Class for a decade.

I would go along and have a look and introduce yourself before shelling out a cent. Watch them shoot a match see if they are people you want to get involved with. They should give you a shot of one of their guns unless there is something wrong with them. Check out the level of competition by the kit they have and the way they interact.

F-Class is not something you buy gear for and then decide you don't like it three months later. Not because it is expensive (which it is) but it's too specific to use for much else. If they are competitive then Grendel will not be a calibre they use. It will all be larger 6.5 calibres. Even in a heavier stock with a decent rest and scope your Grendel will only be equal on a windless or low wind day. As soon as that wind picks up you will be on the bottom of the leader board, unless you are a wind whisperer and there are plenty of indicators (flags, spinners, trees, grass) and it is visible - meaning there are no invisible vortices or spoils. The parameters of F-Class are that you handicap yourself by choosing such a slow calibre and nothing else you surround it with: best scope, rest, stock will make up for the way the wind pushes around the bullet on the way to the target.

Like I say, go down and have a look and a chat with these guys. Ask about their gear; it will likely be super heavy barrels, parallel stocks and high magnification scopes. Often the winner is decided before the first round is shot by how much money is spent on gear.

[65GbySeven]

65,

I competed in 1000yd F-Class for a decade.

I would go along and have a look and introduce yourself before shelling out a cent. Watch them shoot a match see if they are people you want to get involved with. They should give you a shot of one of their guns unless there is something wrong with them. Check out the level of competition by the kit they have and the way they interact.

F-Class is not something you buy gear for and then decide you don't like it three months later. Not because it is expensive (which it is) but it's too specific to use for much else. If they are competitive then Grendel will not be a calibre they use. It will all be larger 6.5 calibres. Even in a heavier stock with a decent rest and scope your Grendel will only be equal on a windless or low wind day. As soon as that wind picks up you will be on the bottom of the leader board, unless you are a wind whisperer and there are plenty of indicators (flags, spinners, trees, grass) and it is visible - meaning there are no invisible vortices or spoils. The parameters of F-Class are that you handicap yourself by choosing such a slow calibre and nothing else you surround it with: best scope, rest, stock will make up for the way the wind pushes around the bullet on the way to the target.

Like I say, go down and have a look and a chat with these guys. Ask about their gear; it will likely be super heavy barrels, parallel stocks and high magnification scopes. Often the winner is decided before the first round is shot by how much money is spent on gear.

Thanks Klem, Scheduled to do that once they open back up due to pandemic. My biggest concern with competing with this group is the scores I am seeing. I am extremely competitive and most are using, to your point, .308, 6.5 large or magnum calibers.

A match Grendel Rifle is something I want to buy/build for my own "fun" but though about competing with it as well.

[65GbySeven]

Rebarrel a howa mini with the heaviest contour 24” barrel of the highest quality you can fit on that action, chambered/throated for the specific bullet you want to shoot set at your desired COAL, and drop into a quality chassis.

Or if mark at PF has any of those Grendel bolt guns ready to roll I would go that route, in a chassis.

PF and Howa new barrel are good options. Thank you.

[65GbySeven]

I posted a thread about using it at NRA 600 Yard MidRange. You dont have to compete F-Class, you can enter it as AR-Tactical class (new) and shoot from a standard bipod.

Actually read your post last night that Lemonaid referenced above. Very informative and educational.

[65GbySeven]

If I was going to shoot that match this is what I would bring.

Cz varmint grendel in a bell and carlson stock
Running handloads of 123 eld-m's.

Basicly that's what I own and shot now as a bolt grendel.

Should be a thread somewheres on here about my rifle if you want to see what I'm talking about with the rifle.

I don't shoot competition, so that's my best advice.

Thanks for your perspective. I haven't tried reloading 123 ELD-M's as of yet as I mainly started with hunting and plinking loads.

[65GbySeven]

65,

I competed in 1000yd F-Class for a decade.

I would go along and have a look and introduce yourself before shelling out a cent. Watch them shoot a match see if they are people you want to get involved with. They should give you a shot of one of their guns unless there is something wrong with them. Check out the level of competition by the kit they have and the way they interact.

F-Class is not something you buy gear for and then decide you don't like it three months later. Not because it is expensive (which it is) but it's too specific to use for much else. If they are competitive then Grendel will not be a calibre they use. It will all be larger 6.5 calibres. Even in a heavier stock with a decent rest and scope your Grendel will only be equal on a windless or low wind day. As soon as that wind picks up you will be on the bottom of the leader board, unless you are a wind whisperer and there are plenty of indicators (flags, spinners, trees, grass) and it is visible - meaning there are no invisible vortices or spoils. The parameters of F-Class are that you handicap yourself by choosing such a slow calibre and nothing else you surround it with: best scope, rest, stock will make up for the way the wind pushes around the bullet on the way to the target.

Like I say, go down and have a look and a chat with these guys. Ask about their gear; it will likely be super heavy barrels, parallel stocks and high magnification scopes. Often the winner is decided before the first round is shot by how much money is spent on gear.

Klem,

Here are the list of results from few matches.

http://silhouette-texas.us/fclassresults.htm

[Klem]

Klem,

Here are the list of results from few matches.

http://silhouette-texas.us/fclassresults.htm

65,
Looking at these guys and their calibres they are competitive and have all the right gear. Here's a Youtube video of them shooting;
[video=youtube;9s1Ry--EO5w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s1Ry--EO5w[/video]

Here's a screen grab at the mound
[ATTACH=CONFIG]16072[/ATTACH]

One of the award winners in the F Class photo album is Tom 'Speedy' Gonzales. Speedy is a well known gunsmith (SG Precision Rifles) and also runs the gunsmithing course in Trinidad at the State College. You will learn a lot just by turning up.

https://www.denverpost.com/2007/09/11/gu...reat-guns/

Their kit is as good as it gets; unfortunately that means any Grendel will not be competitive. Not to say you won't have fun so why not go along and introduce yourself.

[65GbySeven]

65,
Looking at these guys and their calibres they are competitive and have all the right gear. Here's a Youtube video of them shooting;
[video=youtube;9s1Ry--EO5w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9s1Ry--EO5w[/video]

Here's a screen grab at the mound
[ATTACH=CONFIG]16072[/ATTACH]

One of the award winners in the F Class photo album is Tom 'Speedy' Gonzales. Speedy is a well known gunsmith (SG Precision Rifles) and also runs the gunsmithing course in Trinidad at the State College. You will learn a lot just by turning up.

https://www.denverpost.com/2007/09/11/gu...reat-guns/

Their kit is as good as it gets; unfortunately that means any Grendel will not be competitive. Not to say you won't have fun so why not go along and introduce yourself.

So funny story, I played baseball at Trinidad State...and likely new 'Speedy'...if he was there in the mid '90s. Thanks for the information. I have spoken with a few of the members and all seem genuine and want to help folks that want to learn the F Class competition. It's also just a cost effective membership if I go once a month versus my public range and it's fees.

I've watched that video many many times. One thing I noticed was no one had fluted barrels. Read a few articles stating some don't believe the cooling effect is worth potentially creating a slight wobble if the fluting is not done perfectly.

I had thought of buying/building a 6 or 6.5 Creedmoor to be able to compete there...and you've confirmed that's what I would need at a minimum. I think I could develop the skill set as I've always been a good shooter. My father was a good marksman as well...maybe in the blood... who knows. He could spin the top off a 2 Liter with his Winchester pump 22LR.

[Klem]

There's no need for fluted barrels in F-Class and I have never seen one in my years of shooting this discipline. Fluting is extra cost and shaves weight off the gun. In some types of shooting it's good to have a light barrel or manipulate the weight of the gun within a max limit but in F-Class you want weight. Big thick barrels don't get hot enough to be concerned when you are shooting 12-round strings with lengthy breaks in between. Fluting looks more cool than it actually cools.

[LR1955]

65,

I competed in 1000yd F-Class for a decade.

I would go along and have a look and introduce yourself before shelling out a cent. Watch them shoot a match see if they are people you want to get involved with. They should give you a shot of one of their guns unless there is something wrong with them. Check out the level of competition by the kit they have and the way they interact.

F-Class is not something you buy gear for and then decide you don't like it three months later. Not because it is expensive (which it is) but it's too specific to use for much else. If they are competitive then Grendel will not be a calibre they use. It will all be larger 6.5 calibres. Even in a heavier stock with a decent rest and scope your Grendel will only be equal on a windless or low wind day. As soon as that wind picks up you will be on the bottom of the leader board, unless you are a wind whisperer and there are plenty of indicators (flags, spinners, trees, grass) and it is visible - meaning there are no invisible vortices or spoils. The parameters of F-Class are that you handicap yourself by choosing such a slow calibre and nothing else you surround it with: best scope, rest, stock will make up for the way the wind pushes around the bullet on the way to the target.

Like I say, go down and have a look and a chat with these guys. Ask about their gear; it will likely be super heavy barrels, parallel stocks and high magnification scopes. Often the winner is decided before the first round is shot by how much money is spent on gear.

65:

Klem beat me to it. This holds true for any of the shooting sports.

I may add that before delving into these things it pays to understand the categories very well since they put limits on your gear. Then look at the rules because those are what you will live with if you compete.

Look at the scores to get an idea of what is acceptable and understand that most likely you will be towards the bottom for a while before you get savvy to the nuances of the ranges and shooting skills needed to be competitive. If you shoot a bolt action Grendel, I think you will be competing in the open category and that means you will not place well because the cartridges the other competitors in your classification and category are using will probably be more suited to F Class than a Grendel.

I still shoot prone unsupported with iron sights and will say that my side of High Power is pretty much dead. For every one of me there are four F Class guys on the line and if anyone else is shooting unsupported, they probably have optics on the rifle. By far the majority of shooters shooting NRA High Power are F Class. I don't look down on them because F Class is not easy when you have winds and mirage. At least it is not easy to win when you have winds and mirage. And that assumes your rifle, ammo, optic, rests, and skills are good enough to win. It is its own entity with its own nuances and skill set.

One thing I do not advise is going cheap just to test the waters. I advise guys to look closely and decide if that is the sport for them and if so, get very specific and very good gear first and shoot competitively with it until they have hit their limits. By then they will probably know enough about the sport and the skills needed that they will know why they hit a limit and know what they need to buy or do to exceed that limit.

LR55

[lazyengineer]

It's hard to find good youtube videos on HighPower and Midrange matches. Here are a few more videos for you:

[video=youtube;2MTI1E0TcZk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MTI1E0TcZk[/video]

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXeDj-ELiqw


Main difference between HighPower and Midrange, is high power is done 3-position at 200, 300, and 600 yards, while Mid-Range is generally only done at 600 yards, and only fired prone; 1 shot at a time). In High Power, there is Service Rifle (AR15 20" A2 or A4), and Match Rifle (everything else). No brakes allowed, and have to shoot using a sling and muscle (no bipods - so no F-Class). Which means shooting standing (200 yards), sitting (200 yards), rapid prone (300 yards), and slow prone (600 yards), and you have to move your gear between those distances. It takes up the day.

Mid-Range is 3 strings all at 600 yards slow-prone only (with nuances like 500 yards, for ranges so limited). F-class only fires mid-range, and they do it all slow prone. F-class allows high power optics, and bipods. Match and Service rifle class still must be done with a sling. They also shoot at a conventional 600 yard Service rifle target, whereas F-class shoots at the 600 yard F-class target, with tighter rings on F-Class targets.

AR-Tactical can be done with a tactical style bipod (i.e. not one of those 20# 3' wide mount "bipods" some F-class shooters use), scope up to 15X, but no break, and max BBL is 20"; and is fired on a Service rifle target (i.e. the larger more forgiving scoring rings; hence the appeal).

For me - I shoot High Power predominantly. Most clubs do Saturday High-Power (200,300,600 of standing, sitting, prone shooting), followed by Sunday Midrange, where midrange is 3-strings all at 600 yards exclusive. Attendance between the two in my experience has been about the same; with about half the shooters on Sunday (Mid-range) still shooting Match or Service rifle, and only about half shooting F-Class; and is consistently that way of the 3 clubs I shoot at.

And the Camp Perry National matches, which are Service Rifle High Power (200, 300, 600 - no F-class), there are thousands of contestants competing over that week. with each match-day drawing between 1000 and 1500 shooters a day. (they have over 200 active firing points all going consecutively; it's quite a facility). They, and the NRA, host Mid-Range national matches as well, which barely break into the 100's of competitors. The big reason for this is that the US Military still issues and honors High Power awards, where the Distinguished Rifleman badge, and the Presidents 100 tabs, become part of a soldiers uniform and ribbons. That's not going away, so I wouldn't say High Power is necessarily "dying", though it's certainly not the big growth-sport like PRS and 3-gun. But there are no military badges or awards for F-class or Midrange.

In general, Service Rifle and Mid-range F-class shooters at times eye-roll each other over nuances; as it is in all similar cross-over human endevours. I tend to hold my tounge, as typically Mid-Range is a maturation sport for when the eye's and body aren't so good anymore at standing and shooting via iron sights - a day that may come for me as well! The shift to allowing optics in Service Rifle is an abomination to purists, but as one now on the wrong side of 40, I'm kinda OK with it! That, and it's relevant, as the entire original intent of High-Power was to encourage civilian proficiency with the modern military issued rifle; and it's typical for the modern US military rifle today to have optics.

Personally, I find High Power more my sport than Mid-Range; though I do enjoy them both. MidRange is just HighPower, but skipping 3 of the 4 stages. I like shooting at 600 yards, but my favorite position is the 300 yard rapid prone stage; as that's where one really gets to the use the Semi-Automatic AR-15 to it's true full potential. That's only done in High-Power, not MidRange.

And my absolute favorite is something called NTIT, which does so even more. NTIT is only done at Camp Perry, and consists of a 6 man fire-team engaging 8 silhouette targets at 600 yards; with a set amount of starting ammo. Fired as fast as you can fire in 50 seconds. It's a total rush. Thing is hits count 4 points, misses count zero. BUT, whatever ammo you have left over, you march as a team to 500 yards, and repeat, now for 3X points. And so forth marching down the range as a team until you finally exhaust your ammo. There's strategy to how fast you fire, since misses cost you the chance for lesser value points down range. For me, and how I roll - it is the single funnest shooting sport event of everything I've done; is the true test of what an AR-15 semi-auto rifle really can do.

I will say, knowing how to use a sling has helped me in open-field 3-gun and PRS. In PRS they set up goofy support opportunities by design, and at times, if you know how to just use a sling, you can shoot better, than if you uses the awkward support the set up for that shot. I thought I'd like PRS more, but it's more odd-position-yoga-with-rifles, than I was expecting.

[grayfox]

Good writeup Lze, lots of info.
BUT......
The upper side of 40 is not "the wrong side" -- Au Contraire!!!
Lots more wisdom, cunning and experience up there (well... here, since I passed that mile marker decades ago) that more than compensates for youth energy and quickness.

Besides, 60 is the new 40 (now if only my bod would believe that!!!).