About seven months ago I used my Alexander Arms 19.5 inch Grendel (Shilen barrel) in a precision rifle match. These matches are sort of a cross between assault rifle, and civilian sniper rifle matches. Greatest distance for a target was 10 inch round steel plates at 500 yards. I was shooting against all sorts of bolt rifles made by known high end US, and European manufacturers. The scoring system is a combination of accuracy and speed. The Grendel served me well, and it won the match. Don't let anyone tell you that the Grendel lacks sufficient accuracy at distance. I know my Grendel made quite a few believers that day.
So far, I know of about 4 Grendel shooters at the Tri-county gun club in Oregon. If any other Oregon Grendel shooters are out there, please let us know.
We hold our first Field Precision Rifle match here in Louisiana this weekend. I'll be shooting my AA Hunter against quit an array of other weapons platforms. I really like the G and believe I will be competitive. We'll be shooting 600 yards with a 3" X-Ring.
Make that one more as of this week Noone... Hopefully I'll get a good load worked up this weekend...
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noone Wrote:The Grendel served me well, and it won the match.
Being a bit modest, are we? I thought it was the anti-gunners who attributed intention to an inanimate object! 
Great shootin', man!
John
JWH Wrote:Being a bit modest, are we? I thought it was the anti-gunners who attributed intention to an inanimate object!
Great shootin', man!
John
Yep; equipment don't win matches, shooters do.
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RStewart Wrote:We hold our first Field Precision Rifle match here in Louisiana this weekend. I'll be shooting my AA Hunter against quit an array of other weapons platforms. I really like the G and believe I will be competitive. We'll be shooting 600 yards with a 3" X-Ring.
RS:
What is the course of fire you guys use in that type of event?
LR1955
LR1955 Wrote:RS:
What is the course of fire you guys use in that type of event?
LR1955
We do 3 strings of 20 rounds with 2 sighters each round. We have the rules posted on Snipers Hide under Tactical Competitions or I can PM them to you if you want to read them.
Rick
pappy42 Wrote:Yep; equipment don't win matches, shooters do.
Yep, the loose nut behind the trigger is always the weak link.
[just joking about the loose nut] it is an old saying in some circles.
This was not directed at Al (pappy) we get along really well.
warped Wrote:Yep, the loose nut behind the trigger is always the weak link.
[just joking about the loose nut] it is an old saying in some circles.
This was not directed at Al (pappy) we get along really well.
At my age, the nut(s) is getting looser and looser. Sigh
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warped Wrote:Yep, the loose nut behind the trigger is always the weak link. [just joking about the loose nut] it is an old saying in some circles. This was not directed at Al (pappy) we get along really well.
Warped / Pappy:
Not always. Only to a point. Guys too often blame themselves for poor performance and more often than not, it isn't them but their rifle / ammo / sighting system. Or, guys have unrealistic expectations from their equipment and when it fails them, they blame themselves instead of finding out why.
LR55
I was speaking of knowledgeable shooters, such as you I and some of the others.
We both know when it is us, we also recognize when it is the rifle.
That takes experience, some shooters are far too impatient and that results in a false conclusion.
BTW give a call when you get the chance.
I do agree with you though.
Many times the rifle gets blamed for something that is the fault of optics, I have seen that far too often.
Even reticle designs can be a real problem, using cross hairs that obstruct the target is just one of the problems.
I can afford and do have some top notch equipment. Does it automaticaly make me win matches? Nope! Still gotta be a SHOOTER.
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pappy42 Wrote:I can afford and do have some top notch equipment. Does it automaticaly make me win matches? Nope! Still gotta be a SHOOTER.
P42:
Absolutely. However, with the best gear for the specific purpose, a shooter knows it is him who either does well or not. Process of elimination. I have found with less experienced shooters that they normally blame poor performance on themselves when their gear really is a huge contributing factor. Surprisingly, even relatively inexperienced shooters can probably shoot better than the mechanical potential provided by a service grade barrel, cheap Russian ball ammo, and lousy sighting systems.
LR55
LR1955 Wrote:P42:
Absolutely. However, with the best gear for the specific purpose, a shooter knows it is him who either does well or not. Process of elimination. I have found with less experienced shooters that they normally blame poor performance on themselves when their gear really is a huge contributing factor. Surprisingly, even relatively inexperienced shooters can probably shoot better than the mechanical potential provided by a service grade barrel, cheap Russian ball ammo, and lousy sighting systems.
LR55
LR,
You could shoot an airsoft rifle and beat most of us. You know you could take that "service grade barrel", ect. and outshoot a lot of folks with the best rifle made.
When you find that rifle that controls it's own trigger, reads wind and mirage, and instinctively knows when to hold'em and when to run'em; please buy it for me because I sure could use one.
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pappy42 Wrote:LR,
You could shoot an airsoft rifle and beat most of us. You know you could take that "service grade barrel", ect. and outshoot a lot of folks with the best rifle made.
When you find that rifle that controls it's own trigger, reads wind and mirage, and instinctively knows when to hold'em and when to run'em; please buy it for me because I sure could use one.
Pappy:
No, not that good and not getting much better.
Have seen way too many Soldiers blame themselves when the culprit is primarily a service grade (and normally trashed) carbine or A-2 firing 855 ball using dot sights or ACOGs that just don't work real well for the task.
No, they should'nt be issued a match grade carbine and ammo because that is the other extreme where they probably won't have the time, motivation, or ability to meet the mechanical potential of their gear. Would be a waste of money.
I guess it is a fine line between equipment and skill. Just that in more cases than otherwise, Joe could shoot his carbine or A-2 better than its mechanical potential (which is pretty poor by civilian standards) but they didn't know it. When that happens, not much you can do to convince him he is good. He has to see good and won't if his blaster / ammo combination shoots four or five minutes.
Got to go. If / when John and Bill set up a Training forum I can go into more detail. Right now I need to do some work with guys who are much better than their trashed A-2's.
LR1955
A fair rifle, decent shooter, and lots of practice will almost always beat out a the best rifle possible, lousy shooter and no practice.
I'm fortunate that AA built me a great rifle. That rifle, and practicing makes a huge difference in my favor.
I alwys enjoy hearing from you folks who are out there shooting and teaching.
I still shoot quite a bit. Quit teaching a couple of years ago. I miss the teaching part. There is much I would like to pass on to someone, but few people have the time or dedication to put into learning it. And, there are some things that I just wouldn't teach anyone until I knew them really well. Just like when I was taking Jujutsu. They don't teach lower belts anything about breaking necks and similar things for a good reason. It took years before they started teaching me that stuff. It is the same with much regarding fighting with weapons as opposed to teaching simple marksmanship.
Marksmanship is something any responsible gun owner should learn. The real down and dirty fighting with a firearm simply isn't necessary for most people.
noone Wrote:There is much I would like to pass on to someone, but few people have the time or dedication to put into learning it. And, there are some things that I just wouldn't teach anyone until I knew them really well.
Marksmanship is something any responsible gun owner should learn. The real down and dirty fighting with a firearm simply isn't necessary for most people.
I was fortunate that when I started competitvely shooting F-Class, 2 High Masters took me under their wing to teach me. The first rule I learned was- Listen, ask questions, but your opionion doesn't matter. It wasn't meant to be rude, but that their time was limited and if someone felt they already "knew" what to do, they didn't spend the time with them. Though I have hunted since I was 6, they got me back to the basics. From proper position, to trigger squeezing (not pulling), to breaking the shot and reloading. Without their help I would have been "okay". With their help I have steadly advanced.
We recently started a Field Precision Rifle category and I proudly put my Grendel up against the .338 Lapuas and .308 and don't look back. It is the confidence born of putting into practice what others were willing to teach.
Sorry for the dissertation, but I am a firm believer in folks learning how to handle fireams properly and proficiently.
Rick
Many asian people use the analogy of a cup of tea. The cup of tea represents your knowledge base. If you cup of tea (or knowledge base) is full, no one can put any more tea (or knowledge) into it. You must first empty your cup before anyone can put more into it. If you already think you know it all, your cup is full, and all the wisdom in the world will be lost if someone tries to teach you. Empty your cup first.
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