600 yards - NRA MidRange High Power match with 6.5 Grendel - mixed results (big post)

[lazyengineer]

(long post - so bewarned!)

This weekend I fired at a 600 yard Midrange match. I had chance to fire the Grendel as well. I learned a lot.

Background:
Course of fire typically is 20 rounds (+sighters) at 600 yards, fired one shot at a time. This is a structured event where rounds are fired from the prone position with competitors all abreast in a timed course, of 22 shots (2 of which are sighters), fired in 22 minutes. And each shot into the paper target 600 yards away is marked (note 1st picture); so you can see where you hit every shot, and adjust as you go.

Each 600 yard target frame is about 3' across.

Here's a generic internet photo of what it really looks like, 600 yards away:


I took my standard National Match 5.56 20" AR15 (Service Rifle category gun); which is fired from the prone position using a sling for support, and a 4X scope. For comparison; here's how the Service Rifle shot:

Record sheet from 5.56 AR15 at 600 yards - 20 rounds fired + 2 sighters.
80.5gr Berger @ 2770 FPS, 0.82 seconds flight time.

Which of the 20 rounds fired, came out to a score of 198-11x. This is good. Note the grid lines are in MOA; which is to say each line represents 6 inches @ 600 yards. (the S2 in the 9 ring upper left, is the second sighter shot)

To topic: What I was excited about was bringing my 20" Monster BBL'd Grendel, and firing it as well - with it's much more attractive Ballistic Coefficient. I was hoping to shoot this good. One thought was to shoot the Grendel in the AR-Tactical category during one of the three 20-shot strings that will be fired this day. AR-Tactical is a new category in this style match, which allows a shooter to fire with a bipod and up to 15X optics, at the same target. i.e. don't HAVE to use a sling, and not limited to 4X max magnification by rule (unlike most of the other categories). Anyway, I ended up shooting the 5.56 National Match for record in the end. But, as it turns out, I had opportunity to fire the Grendel anyway, when one of the other competitors had to withdraw early.

So for 22 minutes, I had a guy pulling the target at 600 for me, so I could get zero's with various loads, and also see how well this gun really shoots at 600 yards - a nice opportunity.

Here are the results from that.
Scope is a Primary Arms 2.5-10X GLx series, with markings in MIL (not MOA).
Rifle is: Anderson lower, BCA stripped upper (for tight BBL fit), TEAM Monster BBL and bolt, PSA Bolt carrier nut and handguard, graphite bipod, LaRue 2-stage trigger, Magpul CTR stock, Aero Precision Buffer on an Anderson lower. ELander mags (though single loaded thru ejection port per competition rules for 600 yard slow-fire)

I will say, there is a skill to shooting a bipod; and I'm still mastering it. When you shoot a sling, the tension of that forces a very consistent hold and addressing of the rifle. Shooting off a bipod and you can address the rifle much less consistently, and load it less consistently, unless you're skilled at it. Also, it seems like a bipod run gun can really jump up off the concrete - the consistency of which may be an item as well. So for some of these strings, I fired off a ruck-sack (which is also AR-Tactical legal), vs the bipod, but still got similar results.

65-Grendel: 95gr VMAX: 27.0 gr LT-32 @ 2710 fps

Shot 1 was actually still a sighter and I adjusted after that shot. So shots 2-5 are circled. As you can see, 2,3,5 are actually QUITE good. But shot 4 isn't very good. Giving the total group size of just four shots roughly 2 MOA. I might have actually shot that in competition, if this were my initial test string. While I generally take a dim view on discarding unpleasant shots, I can't say for sure if shot#4 was or wasn't me and the bipod.


(cont - image count limitation)

[lazyengineer]

65-Grendel: 100gr H-ELD: 28.7 gr ARComp @ 2726 fps (yes, it's a little faster than my 95 gr load, but close)

This one didn't go so good. As you can see I hunted all of the target to finally get the zero, which was basically half a MIL less than the 95 gr load; that's quite a difference for two similar wt bullets at similar velocity. There are two groups here. 2,3&4 were at the same settings; odd how 3 and 4 were so high. Shots 8-11 were all at the same settings, and see the vertical stringing. No way would I compete with this, that's close to 3 MOA.

65-Grendel: 120gr H-ELD: 27.9 gr TAC @ 2420 fps (a relatively mild load that seemed to shoot well at shorter range)

This was actually my first string with the Grendel. Many of the shots aren't recorded, but shots 1, 2, 3 were all at the same settings. See how 2 of them are great, but one of them went all the way out into the white. I kept shooting thinking if I could shoot several 10's in a row, I could try to compete with this. I was not successful, so ended up not competing with this rifle in the match.

65-Grendel: 129gr H-SST: 27.8 gr TAC @ 2374 fps (0.951 seconds flight time)

It was shooting maybe 2 MOA or worse.

Lessons and observations:
Three things I think tripped me up with the Grendel
1) Despite changing out a lot of things and trying a lot of things, I can't really make my Grendels sing. 1 MOA or better is proving difficult for me to achieve even at short range, though I tried numerous additional tweaks before this match to try and improve things; which don't appear to have helped much. My struggles continue despite BBL, upper, lapping or no, optics, ammo, load, factory vs reloads, gas block used (that was a waste of time), muzzle device, and bolt; firing from bipod or sandbags - doesn't matter.
2) While 6.5 bullets have better BC than 5.56 bullets, Grendel is slow; and so has more flight-time in some settings; which means more time for the wind to act on it, and for more spread out bullet drop behavior with standard deviation of velocity.
3) I can't say if I've mastered the art of the bipod yet or not.

In all fairness, I am comparing a sub-$200 Moster BBL, to a custom made Shilen malonited 5.56 BBL HBAR with a match competition chamber and ammo timed to that barrels throat; fired out a gun that weighs twice as much as the Grendel, with a round that already recoils have as much. So it's probably not realistic to expect the Grendel to shoot as well, but I was so impressed by the weight and BC of Grendel, I thought it would compensate for that and beat out the 5.56 at 600 yards. I was wrong.

That said, one of the other shooters at the match thought it was neat I too was shooting Grendel, and says he gets 1-hole groups with his Grendel at home (and I believe him; he's not a boaster). He uses Sierra bullets. Most every shooter I talk to who can make a Grendel really sing, says they do with Sierra's, so I think I'll try that next. Also, the 95 gr load performance was encouraging.

[CJW]

Excellent post Lazy, what in the hell are you doing up at 0305hrs?

[Arkhangel5]

LE,
Good write up. I like the fact that you included all your environmental conditions in addition to your shot placement.

I also use my Grendel in AR-Tactical matches out to 600yds, I am running an 18" Satern barrel that shoots very well.

As a High Power shooter, I prefer to shoot the heavier for caliber bullets in competition, so I have limited experience shooting the lighter weights at that distance.
I just don't bother with lightweight bullets, prefer to use my limited testing time with more predictable projectiles.

In matches I prefer to use the 123gr class bullets, the Hornady ELD-M at 2465fps and the Nosler CC at 2490fps, with a slight preference to the Hornady, my barrel just seems to shoot that bullet a little better.
It also shoots the 123 SMK very well.

I will agree with you, the Grendel doesn't offer any significant advantage over a match grade .223 at the shorter distances, but really starts to shine beyond 500yds in windy conditions.

Again thanks for that writeup. Nice range by the way.

SY

[Lemonaid]

+1 on interesting post, thanks!

[Double Naught Spy]

Good post! Thanks for sharing.

[VASCAR2]

Very good post! I wish you could’ve shot my 20 inch Shilen Match profile barrel with 6.5-20 scope. With 123 grain bullets I can’t shoot it to its full potential. With a quality barrel and ammo the 6.5 Grendel is no slouch.

[LRRPF52]

My lightweight Lilja Grendel barrels would match or out-shoot your Shilen .223 barrel.

I've rapid-fired full magazines into the head of 18" Sils at that distance off the bipod on a concrete bench, to the point it wasn't really much of a challenge.

If you really want to smoke that course of fire though, you need to look at the 6mm AR with 107s or whatever new hotness 6mm bullets there are.

You get the same speed and better ToF than .223, with way higher BC, and a very flat trajectory.

If someone is looking at this as a solid Grendel vs .223 Wylde conclusion, they shouldn't, and should pay very close attention to the fact you recognize that this is a Shilen vs economy barrel really, though the .223 Wylde will have flat trajectory and the newer high BC .224" bullets are more competitive than 69gr or 77gr SMKs.

If I was pursuing the paper discipline, I would definitely invest in at least 2 6mm ARs and do all the brass-prep and fire-forming necessary for that.

I personally really enjoy the immediate feedback from steel, and do a lot of field positions in unmolested terrain out in the Mountain West region, so the Grendel is Goldilocks for that since there is a ton of factory ammo and the projectile weights impact the steel with enough authority to hear the hits even out to much farther distances.

None of that impact energy matters on paper, as long as it groups well, so there is a distinct difference.

Thanks for the detailed report. Would love to see it with a Shilen, Lilja, Krieger, Criterion, or Bartlein Grendel and 123gr ELD-M, SMK, or Scenar. 120gr Scenar-L would be another good bullet, as would the 107gr SMK.

[grayfox]

Lz, nice writeup and kudos for the honesty in report/analysis.
I can't speak to that high caliber of shooting matches (can't really do prone -- my back...) but in my times off the bench, I too found the bipod to be challenging from a hard surface. I've since switched to a rest/sand (or bag if you will) and a rear bag, which dampens any recoil off of that hard surface. Also I can avoid inconsistencies in my "preloading" or such.
Plus, if you have the time/etc, do you have a 123 sst/Eldm load for the Monster barrel around 2480-2510 ft/s? It would be nice to see what that load combo would do. Doesn't have to be seated way long, the sst's so far have not been Coal sensitive - I use 2.250 give or take...

[lazyengineer]

My lightweight Lilja Grendel barrels would match or out-shoot your Shilen .223 barrel.

I've rapid-fired full magazines into the head of 18" Sils at that distance off the bipod on a concrete bench, to the point it wasn't really much of a challenge.

If you really want to smoke that course of fire though, you need to look at the 6mm AR with 107s or whatever new hotness 6mm bullets there are.

You get the same speed and better ToF than .223, with way higher BC, and a very flat trajectory.

If someone is looking at this as a solid Grendel vs .223 Wylde conclusion, they shouldn't, and should pay very close attention to the fact you recognize that this is a Shilen vs economy barrel really, though the .223 Wylde will have flat trajectory and the newer high BC .224" bullets are more competitive than 69gr or 77gr SMKs.

If I was pursuing the paper discipline, I would definitely invest in at least 2 6mm ARs and do all the brass-prep and fire-forming necessary for that.

I personally really enjoy the immediate feedback from steel, and do a lot of field positions in unmolested terrain out in the Mountain West region, so the Grendel is Goldilocks for that since there is a ton of factory ammo and the projectile weights impact the steel with enough authority to hear the hits even out to much farther distances.

None of that impact energy matters on paper, as long as it groups well, so there is a distinct difference.

Thanks for the detailed report. Would love to see it with a Shilen, Lilja, Krieger, Criterion, or Bartlein Grendel and 123gr ELD-M, SMK, or Scenar. 120gr Scenar-L would be another good bullet, as would the 107gr SMK.

Excellent reply and thank you! Fully agree on all points. I did expect the Team BBL to shoot a little better, but that may not actually BE the barrel; as there is much more involved. Next time I get the chance, I'll put the Grendel upper on my lead-weighted A2 competition lower, which should help tame some of the recoil. And I may even run a sling. I suspect the notable rebound "gun-launch" of a relatively light rifle from bipod on concrete, may well have been a factor. It's interesting that the lighter 95 gr bullet shot best. And my very best results tend to be with 90 gr TNT's (not fired at 600 this day). It's curious to note how the lower the bullet weight (and so lower the recoil), the better this particular shooter seem to group.

For me, I like Grendel because I view it as the ultimate do-all round. Which is why I used it at this competition in its nominal configuration. I like Grendel because it should have performance, and also has ass to do something when it gets there. How did the do-all gun do? It does decent. I think with practice and effort it can do even better. If I were to go back next week and had to compete with it, I would take my 95's, and would hope to break a 190 score out of 200 - I think I could and that would be Master level score. I don't know if I can break High Master (97%) with it like I can with a National Match .223; but if I loaded the rounds to the lands (i.e. single load length only), put it on a heavy NM A2 leaded stock .... then maybe.

Regarding gongs, I find Gong's much more satisfying as well! And agree - I find trying to shoot .223 at 500 yard gongs means you better have a friend spotting - because with .223 direct hits can be so weak as to not be even noticed on your own! Grendel hits a lot harder. But for me at least, I noticed that when I shoot gongs I've found it easy to mind-convince myself I'm doing better than maybe I really am. 14 out of 20 shots being hit makes me think I'm doing great, and those 6 misses were easy for me to just neglect. With actual paper and a score-keeping sitting behind me scoring every shot; I don't get to do that (and 7's are damned expensive!). AND I get to see just where they are going!

Many people's goal is to win the competition. I sure want to too; and when it matters I bring the A game. But I shoot competition because I just plain love to shoot; and love to tinker. So I'll show up with gear that isn't quiiiite all perfect, because I'm trying to test something. I'm guessing a lot of us can related to that!

[LRRPF52]

The one big advantage with the .223 is that there is very minimal disturbance of the rifle, which means the natural point of aim is much easier to maintain than when the rifle jumps, especially with a bipod.

This is a disadvantage to the Grendel when shooting the higher BC 123gr bullets compared to 80-90gr in the .223 Rem.

I would look at the 107gr SMK in this regard, which has a higher Litz BC than Sierra's stated BC in the low .400s.

If you look at the bullet length and shape of the 107gr SMK, it has better shaping than the 123gr A-MAX and ELD-M, with longer OAL.




You'll also have less sight picture disturbance with far less chamber pressure, so at a certain point, I think there is a way to make the rifle recoil less.

When I've shot the 95gr Lehigh through my lightweight 17.6" Lilja Grendel, it felt almost like shooting a .22LR with no bipod jump that I remember.

I would definitely get an upper-end Grendel barrel though so you don't shortchange the whole experiment out of the gate.

[Lemonaid]

This Mark and Sam after work vid may have a few pointers about bipod use that will help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-qEHPqv2bY

[lazyengineer]

This weekend, had chance to test bipod vs sandbags. I fired the rifle in up to 3 different configurations. All using the Monster team 20" (which appears to be a Faxon, by appearances) BBL in semi-heavy condition, fired at 200 yards. Some wind today. 5-shot groups, and NO replicates.

Configuration:
1) Light lower with Magpul CTR Stock and LaRue 2-stage trigger and fired off Bipod
2) Light lower with Magpul CTR Stock and LaRue 2-stage trigger and fired off Sandbags
3) Heavy A2 National Match lower with lead filled A2 stock; and Geissle National Match trigger off Sandbags



Interesting results.
1) everyone who's been saying try the Sierra bullets for improved accuracy, appears to be right. The rifle is not quite 1 MOA, but at least is approaching it, with those bullets; far better than anything else I feed it (short of the TNT 90's). Alas, they are 40 cent bullets, but at least getting close.
2) The Monster team 20" BBL is OK; but for me, not much better than the original A2 cut PSA 20" BBL. Kind of bummed by that, I though it would shoot notably better. Numerous other loads and ammo was fired, all giving about the same results as the two non-Sierra bullets in that table.
3) The configuration of firing off bench with a heavy (low recoiling) stock system, vs bipod w/ much lighter stock, doesn't appear to have made much difference, (beyond the error of this simple test)

As an aside, I also ordered the Sierra 107 gr bullets when I ordered the Sierra 120's. Aaaannnd got a nice box of 6mm 107 gr bullets. :confused: *sigh*

FWIW, the gun and the E-Lander 17 round mags I was using for the 5 shot strings, shot 100% (as always).

[Kswhitetails]

LE- I too will add compliments to your post. I've been here six times, re-read it that many times, and still find details in my head from memories you've sparked.

I have been chasing the bi-pod devil. I've discovered something that may or may not help. If it's not windy, the bench is steady, and I can get in position (Grayfox and I have backs that don't like prone), then I go for the popular PRS free-recoil method. That is to say, I use a light trigger, and don't touch the gun with my shoulder or cheek. I look through the scope, and squeeze the trigger between the thumb and index finger only. I've shot two groups with my Benchmark 120Sierra loads that I can't tell you how many rounds made the single 1/2' hole (I think that day I had 40 ish rounds left, and did a quick 4 mag test with the methodA/methodB/A/B strings of fire at 1/2" dots at 100). It was this test that told me it was me, not the load or equipment. If I put my shoulder on the gun and loaded the bipod (method B) as is suggested to be best, the group (on the same day, with the same load), grew to over an inch. And I was trying. There was no doubt that the results were astonishingly good with the free recoil method. Sadly, I have been unable to properly re-create these results and thusly have never made a report post. The weather was indeed perfect, I think that had more to do with anything than I did. Perfectly calm days in KS are exceedingly rare, especially when it's not 0 or 100 degrees outside...

I've since then bought a much higher quality Atlas bipod. I will say, It's much higher quality than my Harris. The results however, have been absolutely the same.

Somewhere along the lines, I figured out that I was chasing ghosts so to speak. Ghosts that for me, didn't mean anything. I'm sure they can be caught, and some men better than I prove it. But for me, who has no access to a range or club shooting the style of match to support it, chasing these Caspers was silly.

I'd love to bring my rifle to that range some day. I'd love to see what my LaRue is truly capable of, when the stars align and the weather/circumstances/shooter cooperate perfectly. I think it'd astonish me.

Good luck with your chase.

BTW, I don't think that 150 dollar barrel is anything to sneeze at. Good shooting. Especially considering the various (I'm guessing un-developed) loadings with less than ideal-for-caliber bullets - which I think that 80.5 Berger is pretty close to in 5.56.

Here's something else: If one was to take the form factor of the bullet you're shooting, and scale it up to the .264 bore, what would it weigh? What would it's dimensions look like? Anything similar to what is available for 6.5?
The reason I've asked is because there's a minute thought that goes through my head: 5.56 has been surgically analyzed, superfluously tested, and every gremlin that resides there is known and has long since been mapped. The same can't yet be said for the Grendel. Similar lessons while applicable, haven't been tested, guaranteed, and the issues haven't been overcome in the same way. A 6.5 Grendel barrel with similar proportioned dimensions to the 5.56 barrel would be longer, have thicker walls, and be much heavier than the 5.56 barrels, right?

Comparing calibers apples to apples then is a function of scale in my mind. Which sparks a thought: Is a 16" naval cannon just an extremely thin-walled large scale pistol barrel floating around on an armored barge at sea?

[Mesa1978]

Could have tried that PSA 65.

[FLshooter]

I always said that if a barrel cannot shoot sierra MK well,it’s a dud. Not always the case. But all of my shooters do very well with match kings.