Bear Creek Arsenal now posting pictures of groups at 100 yards on their website

[LRRPF52]

Yes. Deductive reasoning on price points that low tells me the absolute minimum operations are being applied to the barrels.

Are they all crowned other than a rough cut?

What are they doing to control for inclusions?

Are the extensions square with the tennon shoulder?

Is the chamber cut concentric to the bore?

Is the bore concentric to the OD?

Are the threads concentric and square to the bore and OD?

I know a bit about what it takes to do all of the above, and it isn't simply a matter of hiring the lowest wage employee and telling him to hit execute on the CNC and expect magic to pop out.

I'm looking at 6.5 Grendel barrels on their site right now ranging in prices from $54.99 to $124.19.

Of course they shoot patterns. I wouldn't expect anything more.

[Klem]

Is his scope mount loose?

Has the erector in the scope come loose?

Is the barrel nut done up?

Is he claiming poor groups when they are 1MOA?

What is his definition of accuracy?

Where are the pictures?


I get there's a narrative based on fact tied up in slamming a particular barrel manufacturer and in this case you may well be right, but for the sake of details it's still an assumption. I have nothing in this fight so I am interested in all the variables that cause bullets to go where they go. If you don't care and have made your mind up based on abduction then at least don't try and reason it's more than an assumption.

You've painted yourself into a corner.

[LRRPF52]

Even if all of those things are squared away, the likelihood of a $124 barrel being worth the time it takes to iron it all out just doesn't justify itself in the slightest.

It's not high-browed either, since you can get an amazingly-accurate barrel for $325 going with a Criterion.

I'll agree with you that we don't know the assembly method, barrel mate-up with the receiver, barrel nut torque, what trigger, balanced torque on the ring fasteners, cross bolts, etc.

But again, it isn't worth the range time and ammo just to find out the inevitable.

I've seen what ARs do on-target when the barrel is loose in the upper.

You still will get consistent hits on paper within reasonable range.

Same with loose scopes that appear to be mounted well, but aren't.

Going completely off-target may be a combination of all those things.

I would still get rid of the barrel.

[Klem]

"...the inevitable" AHAHAAAA, Classic! Promise us you will never be a police officer, judge or scientist.

OK, for the sake of pride and keeping the peace I will concede it's likely the barrel - a barrel with the worst reputation on the Grendel forum.

He should have started the thread, I am a victim of a BCA barrel. Please join me in bagging them while I try and sort out my mistake..

[LRRPF52]

I will happily occupy the corner that says, "Get the best barrel you can and don't waste your money on tempting low-ball price points when it comes to critical components of the rifle."

The trips back and forth to the range, the feeling you have walking away from your shooting session, and looking at the poor performance after all your efforts is just not worth it.

There are plenty of barrels on the market for twice that price that still won't shoot or are gassed incorrectly to even consider wasting your time with something in that price range.

[LRRPF52]

"...the inevitable" AHAHAAAA, Classic! Promise us you will never be a police officer, judge or scientist.

OK, for the sake of pride and keeping the peace I will concede it's likely the barrel - a barrel with the worst reputation on the Grendel forum.

He should have started the thread, I am a victim of a BCA barrel. Please join me in bagging them while I try and sort out my mistake..

If a police officer sees the male prostitute he's arrested 15 times over the last 3 years hookin' on the side of the road with a case of rabid herpes on his lips in his ruffled miniskirt....

If a judge sees the same offender in for the same offense...

If a scientist sees the same results with the same ingredients in an experiment, forgive him if he leans towards his hypothesis just a bit more.

You immediately assumed the OP made mistakes, and were quite rude with him by calling him out thusly:

Without details like pictures of the groups, range setup, distance and conditions, no offence but it's still just an unfounded claim. Everyone's definition of accuracy is different so it's all relative.

With only the detail in the thread so far it's less likely to be the ammo than other factors; these include the gun, the rest, the conditions and your ability to shoot. We get you are angling to blame others but there are a lot of possibilities here which you are responsible for. There's also the elephant in the room which is a low count poster abusing social media for cheap competitive gain, or a disgruntled former customer. You see where I am coming from?

Before we follow your lead and dump all over the retailer and barrel manufacturer let's see the detail so we can help you.

So from a scientific perspective, as well as applying critical thinking standards of relevancy, I agree that the pillar of completeness is missing here for starters, in addition to depth, breadth, and logic.

I don't want to see new members come here with a problem with a known low-performer company and be called out without cause as a disgruntled employee, someone who can't shoot, or blaming others.

Does that make sense?

Right now it's looking like you're leaning to him being the problem, when BCA has a reputation for cranking out the lowest price point barrels and products with very low levels of performance, in addition to being caught employing enough illegal workers to warrant an ICE raid.

So from a scientific, legal, or street-wise perspective, you see why I'm leaning the way I am.

[Klem]

and you immediately assumed...

A police officer sees a previous offender and is mandated not to discriminate.

A judge sees a previous offender but she/he can only convict if the facts present a case that is beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil case the burden of proof is less; on the balance of probabilities.

A hypothesis is not a conclusion (I am a scientist).

Don't spar with me on this, you have painted yourself into an intellectual corner. Assumptions are not facts.

[LRRPF52]

A 'Rookie' who wants us to be "gentle" is a 66yo who has zeroed "dozens of rifles". If you know your stuff and have already contacted the retailer then let us know how it all turns out because clearly you have it in hand and don't need our advice. Wait until it is all resolved before sticking the boot in. You might not be so disgruntled if they look after you...or if it turns out it's your fault.

I don't want any members of this forum being treated this way when they start an account and come here for help.

He hasn't given any indication that he is the problem.

The upper was complete and assembled by Pro2A Tactical, which is plausible after perusing their site with customer feedback on their advertising talking about how great the BCA barrels are.

I have not seen one piece of evidence that would steer me in the direction that this is something the OP caused.

Maybe his scope is loose, after dozens of rifle zeroing over his lifetime, but how likely is that?

Even if this is his first time shooting a gas gun, we shouldn't be talking about patterns and complete misses of the paper.

What is the least common denominator of the problem that I can see? BCA barrel.

It defies everything I know about logic and decency to start calling him out as the problem.

When I came to this forum 10-11 years ago, I was welcomed and immediately given a lot of information and advice in a very friendly manner by a group of people who genuinely wanted to help out.

We must strive to maintain that spirit and friendly conduct here.

[Klem]

Still happy to help him but have asked for details, which have not been forthcoming. Until then we are fumbling in the dark trying to justify assumptions.

Unlike you, I am not going to jump to conclusions. He volunteered he used three types of ammo and where he bought his gun and what barrel it is but apart from that we are left guessing. Deflect blame to me if you want, but you know I am right.

[LRRPF52]

and you immediately assumed...

A police officer sees a previous offender and is mandated not to discriminate.

A judge sees a previous offender but she/he can only convict if the facts present a case that is beyond a reasonable doubt. In a civil case the burden of proof is less; on the balance of probabilities.

A hypothesis is not a conclusion (I am a scientist).

Don't spar with me on this, you have painted yourself into an intellectual corner. Assumptions are not facts.

So why with your scientific background did you suggest "disgruntled employee" as even a possibility in this thread?

You don't have a patent on exclusive rights to the scientific method, and you've certainly violated several pillars of the intellectual standards in this thread already.

I also have a very solid scientific background coming from the aerospace sector and a lifetime of learning applied physics from some of the best mathematicians and theoretical physicists in that industry. Firearms is a cake-walk compared to the technical subjects and math I grew up with. So I'd be happy to discuss science in a different thread, but this isn't it.

I've also worked as an investigator and was extremely good at that job, and we can talk about that offline if you want, but this isn't about that.

This is about common decency and welcoming new members without assuming that if they have a problem, it's their fault or they have some agenda other than what is stated.

This forum has not been known for that kind of treatment of new members, so I don't understand why you have done that.

If there is some other post somewhere that I'm missing, somebody point it out to me because I'm just not getting where or why the guy is being blamed for a BCM barrel, assembled by a shop I've never heard of before.

Klem, of all the people here, I associate your component selection with top-shelf barrels, optics, mounts, rifles, ammo, etc. It's just odd to see this, so I'm not sure what the heck is going on here. PM me if there is something I'm missing before this gets any more off the rails.

[Klem]

PM sent.

[LRRPF52]

When I say intellectual standards, this is what I'm referring to:



If you're looking to spar with someone, this isn't the place for it.

We can find another scientific setting and I'll bring my A game based on Aerospace Engineering, theoretical physics, and related applied sciences that will crush anything in the firearms industry without much effort. I put myself through the NATO/West German Aero E course material from the ages of 13-16 (without even knowing it) because I liked airplanes. I found a massive volume of books my dad had from that time and absorbed them with more vigor and interest than any other academic program I've done, to include extremely unforgiving and intense medical training at SOMTB, my business degree, and all the professional education and courses over the years. Underly all that with the lifetime of lessons from some of the most accomplished theoretical physicists in aerospace during my developmental years, and I'm very much at home in a scientific discussion. To me, it's just a way of life.

Again, I agree it would be nice to have more information about the particulars of this complete upper, but this isn't about that.

It's time to take ownership over what really matters here and accept that it wasn't appropriate to suggest that the 5 post new member was somehow at fault or a disgruntled employee.

[Lemonaid]

This would be helpful for a lot of things if the forum could do it. Have a five star rating system on the forum like Amazon or other retailers have where you can give 1 to 5 stars and a brief explanation of your experience with the product.
The forum would then automatically average the ratings and display it.
When I purchased my BCA 24 inch complete rifle I hadn't heard of the 6.5 Grendel forum and there was no feedback left on the BCA website. I was the first that left feedback for that product. I may have made a different choice if I had read other's feedback about it.
There are some on the forum who give BCA positive value for money rating (myself included). Lots who had very bad experiences. I have not seen much feedback on the BCA site so either it wasn't left or BCA would not post them.
It would be great to have on the forum a rating system so that you could click on say Speer 90 TNT bullets and get the Grendel star rating from forum members.

[Klem]

When I say intellectual standards, this is what I'm referring to:


If you're looking to spar with someone, this isn't the place for it.

We can find another scientific setting and I'll bring my A game based on Aerospace Engineering, theoretical physics, and related applied sciences that will crush anything in the firearms industry without much effort. I put myself through the NATO/West German Aero E course material from the ages of 13-16 (without even knowing it) because I liked airplanes. I found a massive volume of books my dad had from that time and absorbed them with more vigor and interest than any other academic program I've done, to include extremely unforgiving and intense medical training at SOMTB, my business degree, and all the professional education and courses over the years. Underly all that with the lifetime of lessons from some of the most accomplished theoretical physicists in aerospace during my developmental years, and I'm very much at home in a scientific discussion. To me, it's just a way of life.

Again, I agree it would be nice to have more information about the particulars of this complete upper, but this isn't about that.

It's time to take ownership over what really matters here and accept that it wasn't appropriate to suggest that the 5 post new member was somehow at fault or a disgruntled employee.

Mate...what can I say...

I made my position clear in the PM. If you want to bring it back into the open then I'm bowing out...Feel free to have the last word.

[LRRPF52]

This would be helpful for a lot of things if the forum could do it. Have a five star rating system on the forum like Amazon or other retailers have where you can give 1 to 5 stars and a brief explanation of your experience with the product.
The forum would then automatically average the ratings and display it.
When I purchased my BCA 24 inch complete rifle I hadn't heard of the 6.5 Grendel forum and there was no feedback left on the BCA website. I was the first that left feedback for that product. I may have made a different choice if I had read other's feedback about it.
There are some on the forum who give BCA positive value for money rating (myself included). Lots who had very bad experiences. I have not seen much feedback on the BCA site so either it wasn't left or BCA would not post them.
It would be great to have on the forum a rating system so that you could click on say Speer 90 TNT bullets and get the Grendel star rating from forum members.

We've been able to maintain a positive, friendly forum all these years where it's understood that people will be treated with respect and genuinely helped out with whatever questions they might have. That's how I was treated when I first came here, and that's the experience I want other members to have.

Without any information that would suggest it, I don't want to see someone run off based on unsubstantiated assumptions that aren't even worth entertaining when there is zero evidence to indicate a hidden agenda.

[Klem]

We've been able to maintain a positive, friendly forum all these years where it's understood that people will be treated with respect and genuinely helped out with whatever questions they might have. That's how I was treated when I first came here, and that's the experience I want other members to have.

Without any information that would suggest it, I don't want to see someone run off based on unsubstantiated assumptions that aren't even worth entertaining when there is zero evidence to indicate a hidden agenda.

You feel entitled to assume a barrel manufacturer is at fault for a problem that has yet to be verified. But the rest of us are not permitted to make equally fallacious assumptions because it transgresses your sense of fair play. You don't want this guy upset but feel entitled to sully the reputation of a manufacturer? How is this not hypocritical?

Why on earth are you sticking up for a guy who is not answering the standard questions we ask? And yet another assumption that he has "run off", as opposed to lurking with a with a bowl of popcorn. Not enough information for anything more than this guy thinks he has a problem and others are to blame.

Storm in a teacup. Much ado about nothing.

[grayfox]

Klem,
You both have gone back and forth a few times and I think this has gone beyond the OP original post/questions.
This issue isn't about anything more now than giving the new poster some benefit of the doubt, whereas there's a wealth of feedback (most not-so-good, some good) about a particular mfr. I don't feel the need to give that mfr "benefit of the doubt" but am willing to let them sell their stuff, and if somebody finds a good one great, but I say don't hold your breath.

I think '52's comment is to try to cut a newbie to the forum some slack if we can.

I learn a lot from reading both yours and '52 info in general... as well as other mbrs' stuff. I'd like to see it stay that way.

[Hollis]

I have had horrible results with two BCA barrels

Looks like a match grade ammo MOA guarantee wasn?t enough so now they are posting center to center caliper photos in every Grendel product page.

They posted a .158 ? group at 100 yards with 130 gr Federal GMB

Who can duplicate their results using a barrel or upper purchased after today ?

Post your group photos here!

I?m in this for consumer education purposes as I vowed to never again buy BCA barrelS

I had great luck with my 20" stainless steel barrel from BCA.

But I had originally purchased an upper with a different barrel and it did not shoot very good at all. But BCA did offer me options and I ended up very satisfied when all was said and done. When you do get a good shooter from BCA, it is a great deal. But it's not for everyone, that's for sure.

[A5BLASTER]

I had great luck with my 20" stainless steel barrel from BCA.

But I had originally purchased an upper with a different barrel and it did not shoot very good at all. But BCA did offer me options and I ended up very satisfied when all was said and done. When you do get a good shooter from BCA, it is a great deal. But it's not for everyone, that's for sure.

That's the problem with BCA right there. It's not cool to be a "WHEN" they finally replace my barrel enough for me to have a shooter.

Let's face it this has been beat to death and back. And it's been the same answer from the get go. If you want a better then 99 % chance that your gun will shoot good to great groups from the get go and at more then 100 yards for more then 3 rounds.

Buy a better barrel plan and simple.

[FLshooter]

I am not in anyway going to bash BCA. I realize there is a niche for their products. I started out taking the BCA route. After getting a custom barrel I realize that I wasted a lot of time effort and money on a barrel that wasn’t going to do what I wanted it to do.
If you’re a guy who likes to shoot a few times a year then a BCA barrel might be ideal for you. And for hunting where only 1-2 shots are taken per time, it may also be ideal. But if you’re wanting to shoot out to 600 yards with consistent accuracy,BCA barrels won’t cut it.