Thank you for the kind words Alan.
Keep in mind that if Bill Alexander wasn't thinking forward and outside of the box we will be shooting 7.62 x 39, all I`m trying to say is that the drive to have a better, faster, more accurate round is driving this community. Few years back we were loosing the battle to achieve 2500ft/sec in all temperature conditions and now we got a multitude of powders delivering 2600+ velocities without any danger to the shooter. Having sad that, would it be far fetched to think that we have achieved the top performance from 6.5 Grendel or any of the copycats or there is more to be desired? Please do not misunderstand my opinion to mean that in any shape or form I condone the theft of the intellectual property or development of hard working individuals like Bill A, Arne B. and others. Firearms industry is a backstabbing business, we all know that. Keeping an open mind and learning something new is the reason we are all here. My personal opinion is that ARPerformance is on to something interesting with the superbolts and maybe with .297 neck and I would like to here more about that before I make up my mind on the subject. Anyone else feel the same way?
Thanks for listening.
Vasko.
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IMHO, if people really want to hot rod the Grendel case, then they should use a different barrel extension in conjunction with a heavier bolt. I thought someone had made that, but my memory is slipping because I can't remember who, or what happened to it.
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From my viewpoint, (and remember what I said previously about opinions!), any and all development of a commercial cartridge is a good thing.
The problem occurs when one of two things occurs:
1) Someone decides to call a similar, but different, cartridge or chamber by the same name that the original is known.
2) Someone decided to call all similar chambers the same thing, regardless of whether or not they are actually the same and will fire the same cartridge.
The market then becomes very confused, and understandably so. This really creates a morass for new people to the caliber, especially.
Alexander Arms worked for years to find brass, develop brass, develop loads, develop magazines, and so on. They worked with or convinced a major industry player to take the cartridge and chamber to SAAMI and went through the certification process. They worked with outside ammunition manufacturers to develop 3rd party brass and loads based upon the chamber submitted to SAAMI.
Now, we are faced with many different manufacturers who are, or will, manufacture chambers which will chamber the commercial cartridge, but may not necessarily chamber ALL the commercial cartridges available. When they don't do so, who will be responsible for that, the cartridge builder, working off the official SAAMI information? Or the company or individual building the rifle and using some variant of the chamber?
When Hornady first loaded Grendel ammunition, it worked in all the Grendel chambers, but not in some 6.5 CSS, some LBC .264's, and in only some of the other variants. With more and more rifle/barrel manufacturers in the game, how many more times will it happen before people start to say, "The Grendel isn't worth it, there is too much confusion"?
If you are a handloader, it isn't much of a problem, but what if you don't handload, like the vast majority of shooters? How can you buy something that may or may not actually work with available ammunition?
I'm all for others who want to build Grendels doing so, more competition makes the market stronger, always has. But it doesn't if what is being marketed as a Grendel isn't really a Grendel, but a variant that doesn't use the same bolt, or the same chamber, or whatever. Because if a new shooter buys a variant that is marketed as being more accurate, or having a higher velocity because of the chamber design or twist rate, and then tries to shoot it and has problems, who gets the blame? The Grendel? Or the company marketing the "latest and greatest Grendel"?
The Grendel is still young, and killing it won't take a whole lot. A bunch of people jumping in the game with Grendel variants that don't fire factory Grendel ammo will cause issues. It caused huge issues when Hornady first loaded Grendel, and that was with only relatively small number of rifles out there. The more rifles available, the worse that issue might become.
I have no issues with people building custom rifles with tight necks for competition shooters, or for anyone who wants a custom chamber built. Comptetition shooters do it all the time with .308, .223, or whatever. Heck, I ordered my 7mm WSM F Class rifle throated for VLD's!
BUT....doing it for non-custom rifles, where people may not realize the issues at risk is bad for the cartridge, and bad for the shooting public. Its a recipe for disaster long term.
I'm certainly not anti-non AA. I own Howa's, Remingtons, Springfields, Kimbers, Olympic Arms, and others.
I am anti-non Grendel chamber, at least for production rifles, because I see so many issues that will affect the long term viability of the cartridge. I want the chamber and cartridge to succeed, and without standardization the chances are much lower. New chambers/cartridges have a tough time as it is, making it tougher makes no sense.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
woohoo Wrote:I'm guessing you have a problem with reading comprehension.
I was talking about screen names because bwaites posted about opinions and sceen names then I said kids about the kids on arfcom who think the 300blk is a 100yd cartridge.
I'll do you guys a favor, I'll sell the 100 barrels I have coming and then drop it. Bwaites if you will please ban my IP address.
Arfcom has a tradition for situations like this: "Well, Bye"
I can't find the Curly Bill pic. Sorry.
Well said bwaites.
IMHO:-)
I think this thread got waylaid by jackassery several pages ago; leave the catty and snide remarks at the door, and keep this a nice forum that helps to spread good information on a great cartridge. <----- run on sentence, I know.
Having only one cartridge, neck diameter and throat would most certainly help out this cartridge! Until this is all ironed out, I think there will continue to be debates and arguments over which cartridge, neck diameter and throat is best. All sorts of convoluted measurements will be done just so someone can claim to have something "different".
I agree with Infidel470 that more velocity would help this cartridge immensely. But, my reluctance comes from the use of the "standard" (most commonly used ones anyhow) barrel extension and bolt. I saw that one manufacturer had come up with a different design for the barrel extension that allowed use of a bolt with much larger lugs. Use of this setup allowed for higher pressures without worrying about broken bolt lugs.
As I have personally had 2 bolts with broken lugs, I would welcome such a change to barrel extension and bolt. However, I don't think that such a setup would really get us much more velocity because of the small capacity of cases of the Grendel type design...regardless of neck diameter and throat design. That said, I would welcome being able to safely load the Grendel type cartridge so that I get another 150 FPS out of the 123 grain bullet. That would raise my 2550 to 2700 FPS, and that is very significant.
Until this modified barrel extension and bolt are available, I'll stay with lower velocity simply because it is my belief that:
"Excess pressure will always find a way out, and it is seldom safe or cheap when it does."
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noone Wrote:Until this modified barrel extension and bolt are available, I'll stay with lower velocity simply because it is my belief that:
"Excess pressure will always find a way out, and it is seldom safe or cheap when it does."
And that is the REAL issue with the AR platform. The lugs make a very nice safety valve, and when they break, the only thing typically damaged is the bolt. New bolt, and you're back up and running.
Increase the barrel extension/bolt strength interface, and something else WILL break, and when it does, it will be MUCH more catastrophic. It might not happen as often, but it will do damage to both the weapon, and likely the user, when it does.
You seek escape from pain. We seek the achievement of happiness. You exist for the sake of avoiding punishment. We exist for the sake of earning rewards. Threats will not make us function; fear is not our incentive. It is not death that we wish to avoid, but life that we wish to live. - John Galt
I'm not sure why ARP is offering the grendel. Over at the snipers hide they seem to hate the grendel with a passion and well anything not the 6.8. I'm sure they make a good product and am not trying to slam anyone but I get the impression they made a few grendels just to talk on forums about how A) they dont sell B) The 6.8 is a better hunting round C) the grendel is a good 300 yard paper puncher and thats about it...........now thats not word for word things I have seen them wright but its close. In short I would buy a 6.8 from them but not a grendel. I want a company to think everything they sell is the best thing since free porn....anyway I read forums not write on them so I'm going to leave it at that.
I don’t know about that Norsk... I see lots of love for the Grendel on Snipers Hide
I'm a Grendel man myself and don't own a 6.8 but truth be known I bet I would have been equally as satisfied if I had went the other direction. From what I’ve seen they are both sweet cartridges that offer increased performance over the 5.56 from an energy on target/hunting standpoint. The folks that get their panties in a bunch over which is better 6.* or 6.# must have dull lives as I sure have more important things to invest my time in than bickering over such details. I can appreciate the fact that the odd ball one off chambering’s just muddy the Grendel waters.
Oh I'm not talking about the hide just the guys from ARP in general. And I'm not talking bad about them just saying they seem to not care for the grendel. As I understand they have been pushing the 6.8 hard for a long time and from what I hear I would have no issue buying one from them.
Norsk Wrote:Oh I'm not talking about the hide just the guys from ARP in general. And I'm not talking bad about them just saying they seem to not care for the grendel. As I understand they have been pushing the 6.8 hard for a long time and from what I hear I would have no issue buying one from them.
but they call it 6.8 arp and many others chamber in different name is that all improved version of the saami approved chambers?
thanks
For anyone who is curious, I just ordered the AR15Performance 18" 5R rifled "264 LBC" barrel. I was in the market for an SPR type 18" barrel, and the 5R rifling intrigued me (I have a pair of bolt-guns with 5R rifling already). I figured what-the-hell... at only $175 for the barrel it was worth a shot.
Once it gets here I'll have to send it off to ADCO to get profiled for my suppressor mount, but I'll try to remember to post an update on its performance if anyone cares. If it shoots well I might even take it to a Precision Rifle class I'm taking in July.
Hooz Wrote:For anyone who is curious, I just ordered the AR15Performance 18" 5R rifled "264 LBC" barrel. I was in the market for an SPR type 18" barrel, and the 5R rifling intrigued me (I have a pair of bolt-guns with 5R rifling already). I figured what-the-hell... at only $175 for the barrel it was worth a shot.
Once it gets here I'll have to send it off to ADCO to get profiled for my suppressor mount, but I'll try to remember to post an update on its performance if anyone cares. If it shoots well I might even take it to a Precision Rifle class I'm taking in July.
I'm interested in this, especially how the 7.62x39 bolt/extractor will work out. Keep us updated. My 5.56 barrels from ARP have been great so far for blasters.
Hooz please keep us informed on what you find out.
It's always nice to have an independent review from someone who isn't tied to the company.
Good luck and great shooting.
Lee
Hooz,
I am interested in your New Purchase with 5R rifling too, so please keep us all informed, Please. 
Also, is that the company that's come out with the piston driven "Armageddon series" rifle series?? I can't remember who is going to be making them, but they looked Awesome
Thank you
I just got notification that my AR15Performance "5R" barrel is enroute. It should be here on Tuesday of next week. But... When I asked the other day for a status update on my order (I pre-ordered before the barrels were in stock), I got this reply:
AR15Performance Wrote:They are here but, they are a 6R rifling. OOPs barrel manufacturer counted wrong.
I don't see a big difference, the main thing is that the lands are the correct shape and will not distort the bullet shape and has no corners to collect copper. I was under the impression that one of the main benefits of the 5R rifling was that the lands were each opposite a groove because of the odd number. :confused:
I guess we'll see if it matters once I get the gun built.
I don't think you will be able to tell a difference, I have a 5R Obermyeyer, several six grove Krieger's, and a three groove Pac-Nor. They all shoot the same.
bob
I was just playing around with one of my ARP 5.56-barreled carbines on Tuesday, after doing some ladder-testing with my .260 and the 140gr Barnes Match Burners, 142gr SMK's, and accuracy-testing my Grendel in a standard upper.
The ARP barreled 5.56 Melonited pipe was cutting ragged holes in targets, and we pushed it out to 400yds on IPSC steel without issue, using M193. I love those barrels, especially at the price I got them.
Can anyone tell me when this happened, because I didn't catch it:
Quote:If your priority is shooting targets mainly with some hunting then the 6.5 makes sense. There are only 6 factory loads so reloading is likely to use some bullets. If your priority is hunting with some target shooting the the 6.8 may be a better choice. The Grendel forum made this very clear to me. -AR Performance Website Statement under the .264 LBC barrel http://www.ar15performance.com/264lbc
After going through the thread, it seems pretty clear that hunting is where the Grendel shines, never mind the endless reports, photos, and video of the Grendel dropping small, medium, and even heavy game without hassle.
I also don't believe the 100gr class of bullets are really where the Grendel makes its money, since it does so well with the 120gr class. If you're only looking for mv figures, then yeah, 100gr's have mv bragging rights in the Grendel, but the downrange performance of the 120's and higher make more ballistic sense to me, especially with regard to wind deflection and terminal performance on game.
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