AR15performance...

[montana]

Stating how well your products performs is an opinion without neutral verification. This is an opinion forum and that's all. Bill Alexander does not have to verify his work since that has already been done. Opinions are a good place to start for any beginner but in the end we all have to make the final decisions. You may have the greatest products in the AR market, but until its proven it is still your opinion. Without neutral testing your 7.62x39 bolts could be a waist of money, your .297 throats may jam with steel case ammo, etc. If you have verifiable test to prove your products please post them, I would love to see them .Then we could state your facts on your products rather than your opinion.

[bwaites]

Gentlemen,

Opinions are worth exactly what you pay for them. Since they are offered so freely here, accept them as what they are, opinions.

Those who refuse to identify themselves by anything but a screen nom de plume, particularly when they are in the position of offering professional advice or commentary, are always suspect.

As Robert Whitley put it on another forum, "The thing that strikes me most about this thread is how many of the people are making postings under an anonymous forum handle and won't put their true name to their writings. To me that says more about the poster than anything else."

I think the original poster of this threads point has been made....More and more people are starting to build Grendels. That's a good thing. Hopefully, those new builders will adhere to the SAAMI standard, or, if not, make it very publicly obvious that they have not done so.

The confusion surrounding the various difference chambers is very difficult for newbies to comprehend.

[bwaites]

Followed the Grendel when it first came out and just got the itch again recently (kind of took a back burner). What happened that all these other 6.5 chamberings came about. I got a hold of Satern and was told that they only do the LBC now? Didn't they use to make Grendel barrels? Fill in the huge gap that I'm missing.

Alexander Arms maintained control of the Trademark name to assure that anyone building a Grendel was building a Grendel, and not some variant which did not have the benefit of the thousands upon thousands of rounds of development put into the Grendel chamber and cartridge.

Contrary to internet legend, there was NO licensing fee charged, only a marketing agreement and quality control agreement. No one has ever completely explained the reason for Saterns decision, other than to say that they had decided that they could no longer follow the agreement that Alexander Arms was offering, and that it was a business decision based upon that.

Since business decisions are often based upon multiple factors, both economic and personal, there is no reason to go into it further.

[elkbow]

Hi John,

Well said, it isn't the caliber, weight of the bullet, bullet construction, velocity, muzzle energy, power factor, knock down index or any of the things conveniently calculatable that results in humane kills. All it takes is the removal of a vital organ to kill an animal and that takes very little energy. But it is absolutely required that the vital organ be hit to achieve the goal.

Bob

I gave you way too much credit after reading a statement like that. So you believe everyone can make the perfect shot? That there is never wind, everyone always knows the distance, that there is never a branch in the way, that everyone carries a book with the 'skeletal' structure of the animal they hunt, I wish. After a statement like above you are going to have people read this and believe that their .223 is good to go. We don't need comments like yours on these forums, it will give up and coming hunters, young people, etc. the wrong impression and give the tree huggers even more ammo.

Bwaites, now you know what i'm getting at, poor advice that I won't be a part of on this forum. Reread what I was saying and there are people like Bill A., who takes offense when I directed none at him or the Grendel (I own two of his rifles). Personal attacks are not my cup of tea, solid advice is, and I mean solid, its not what I can do with a rifle in my hand, its how we can apply solid logic for others, there is little of that on this forum. I'm amazed at some of the comments in this thread and on this forum. Might as well remove my account, I won't be coming back, this isn't a place to learn, it is not a place where others can seek solid advice.

[montana]

I agree with Elkbow 100% about his opinion about hunting with the 223 and ethical hunting. He's right on the money with that statement. I wish you wouldn't leave because you do sound like you have a lot of hunting and shooting experience to share. Like I said on another thread one shouldn't take others opposition personally. We all have had different expediences and sometimes come to different conclusions. I wish you would reconsider leaving this forum. Montana

[stokesrj]

Elkbow,
I understand that hunting ethics are very personal, and I also understand that no matter what advice you share there are those who will disagree and much of that is because of a failure to communicate accurately. If you take what I said in total and think it through you will understand that I would not recommend that anyone take a .223 and consider themselves good to go. I would also not recommend that just because you are using a .300 WinMag that you don't need to use it with the necessary judgement and discipline. I've actually had to follow up and finish off more animals shot with the latest magnums by clients and friends than I have with modest calibers. It seems to me that you have been offended and are lashing out.
Bob

[stokesrj]

Montana,

I'm not going anywhere, my reason for being on this forum has little to do with what others think of my positions, it is simply to share what I know for those that are interested.

Let me ask you this to help us think this through. Do you think bow hunting is unethical? I was just in your state this fall and took three white tail deer with my bow, two of them went down within sight and required no tracking, one went about 75 yards but was out of sight and required a little tracking to recover. The closest shot was 10 yards and the furthest was 47 yards.
I know my capabilities well and stayed within those capabilities. I don't think any of those deer lived for more than a few seconds after my shot, and I know that two of them didn't.

Now let me ask you this, If I were using a .223 with 70 grain barnes X bullets and I limited my shots to those same three shots, do you think my .223 would be less humane than my bow? Do you think it would be unethical to head shoot a deer at 10 yards with a .223? At 47 yards?

I'm really not trying to put you on the spot, but I think hunting ethics is important enough to thoroughly understand and should not be boiled down to use X or Y caliber. It is much more dynamic and important than that. My experience leads me to believe that ethics are most often compromised by the desire to succeed that pushes a hunter to take a shot that is on the edge of their capabilities, or worse they don't even know what their capabilities are.

I've raised four sons and each of them took their first big game animals the first year they could legally hunt which was ten years old at the time because we lived in Arizona. I built a Remington Model 7 in .243 for this very purpose and three of my four sons used it for their first big game hunts and took animals cleanly with it. One of my sons Timmy who is now a Marine officer candidate and the Florida High Power Prone 600 yard service rifle champion was at the time recoil sensitive and could not shoot the .243 without flinching. So, rather than risk him wounding a deer with the .243 we changed plans for his first big game animal to be a Javalina (yes javalina are classified as big game animals in Arizona). The reason I did this was that for javalina the minimum legal caliber at the time was a .22 magnum. We trained all year with a chipmunk single shot .22 magnum so that we understood his capabilities from prone, sitting and standing, with and without rests. When the time came we stalked to within 25 yards of a herd of javalina and he took the shot from a sitting position. That is an ethical situation, I know without doubt, but I also know people who would say that a .22 mag is not enough gun and claim this was unethical.

My real point is that it isn't the weapon but the mind set that really determines an ethical situation.
By the way that Remington model 7 I started my sons with accounted for many many head of big game and is now a 6.5 Grendel. I consider that to be more effective than the .243.

I certainly don't have anything against anyone who chooses to hunt with a 30-378 if that is what they want to use, as long as they understand how to use it. But it seems to me that people who buy such calibers fall into two categories, those who understand how to use it's long range capabilities and those who are trying to make up for a lack of skill and confidence. I simply think the second group is in more danger of breeching hunting ethics than some one using a light caliber rifle within their capabilities.

With all respect,
Bob

[montana]

I agree with you on what you just relayed.I never meant that any caliber couldn't be used ethically. My point was more for new hunters who may get the impression that a 223 is as capable as a more powerful caliber which will penetrate and be more forgiving from a not so accurate shot placement. Almost any weapon can kill anything with a good shot placement, but as the old adage says use enough gun applies. This is why we have so many different calibers to choose from, Every one is looking for a better mouse trap and sometimes they succeed. The Grendel round is case in point, it is in my opinion the best caliber for the AR type platform . That said it wouldn't be my first choice for danger est big game hunting even though it could be used successfully by a skilled hunter. I have seen many big game animals wounded by not so skilled hunters thinking they could do more with less. Poor penetration from certain calibers like the 223 is actually quite common. With proper bullet selection,and skill it will work as good as any caliber. I have also seen very powerful calibers wound animals with poor shot placement as well, thus what I meant by hunting ethics. I wounded a deer using a 250 grain 338 Win mag when the sierra gameking bullet I used blew up and didn't penetrate. From this experience I would never recommend this bullet for hunting and probably would have a hundred people tell me how well it worked for them.This of course would be my opinion from my experience. So I apologize for my confusion on this subject matter and will try to be more clear on my subject. But I also think it is prudent to use the most humane caliber for ones shooting ability. And yes I think bow hunting is unethical if a person doesn't use proper equipment or become skilled in its practice as with a firearm. Hope this clears up my position.

[montana]

I also believe this was the point ELKBOW was trying to relay but I could be wrong.

[woohoo]

Stating how well your products performs is an opinion without neutral verification. This is an opinion forum and that's all. Bill Alexander does not have to verify his work since that has already been done. Opinions are a good place to start for any beginner but in the end we all have to make the final decisions. You may have the greatest products in the AR market, but until its proven it is still your opinion. Without neutral testing your 7.62x39 bolts could be a waist of money, your .297 throats may jam with steel case ammo, etc. If you have verifiable test to prove your products please post them, I would love to see them .Then we could state your facts on your products rather than your opinion.

I have been machining 7.62x39 bolts for about 4 years, we machine about 480 AR15 bolts a month (100 7.62x39 usually)along with, muzzle devices, 6BR bolts, handguards and what ever else I feel like. The only 2 bolts that have broken in that time were special Grendel bolts with a .011 deeper recess because this guy had already broken some other Grendel bolts. When he called about the second one I asked him to send the upper so I could check the receiver to make sure it was square. It was not so I squared it and have heard nothing since so I guess he hasn't broken another. As for the 7.62x39 bolts there are thousands out there being used and thats a fact.
On most forums you will be banned if you use someones name in a post or tie a screen name with a real name because some think it gives info to thieves who may stop by and take your weapons while you are away. As for dealers everyone knows who we are and exactly where we are, but just guys with a sceen name can be as assholish as they want to be without thinking "hey someone I know may think I'm an ass hole". Thats just one of the things to deal with on the errornet. As for me I am sure everyone knows who I am...good thing about being infamous.
In my description of the barrels and uppers it states very clearly the neck size, and throat angle. Don't worry about the Grendel name, I'll make sure I don't use it on my products. I wouldn't want to offend any of the Grendel forum members.
You guys keep pushing ahead, ban together to get someone to load that 100gr TTSX in a factory load....email drives have worked well for the 6.8.
Don't worry bwaites I won't be around, I have guys on arfcom that think the 300blk is a 1000 yd cartridge and you know how hard it is to kill rumors over there after the kids start yakking.

[montana]

woohoo you questioned the opinions on this forum because we are anonymous, So I applied your reasoning back to your own opinion and you then call us assholish, and kids. My only comment (GROW UP)

[woohoo]

woohoo you questioned the opinions on this forum because we are anonymous, So I applied your reasoning back to your own opinion and you then call us assholish, and kids. My only comment (GROW UP)

I'm guessing you have a problem with reading comprehension.
I was talking about screen names because bwaites posted about opinions and sceen names then I said kids about the kids on arfcom who think the 300blk is a 100yd cartridge.


I'm not talking to you now there montana I wouldn't want you to take this personally.
In 06 I stopped by here to talk about loads that I had been using, getting good velocity and accuracy. Just some little tricks learned from my father who was a benchrest guy and some things I had picked up over the 25 years i had been reloading. Things that reduce pressure and increase accuracy. The very first words replied to me were "are you crazy!" You're going to blow yourself up! You can't load above Bills data. Then from there everything went down hill really quick. It took me about 3 days to develop a dislike for most of the people here and in turn the Grendel and all things that go along with it. How many others have felt the same way because they don't follow in the exact same footsteps as Bill A.? There are very few companies making the Grendel or anything that will shoot Grendel ammo, there are very few companies that are loading Grendel ammo. The less people see the Grendel and Grendel ammo in the store the less will buy it, the less stores will carry ammo because no one is asking for it.
Pyramid type expansion can work both ways, they can multiply beyond belief and make a product a huge success or they can go in reverse and collapse on themselves.
I'll do you guys a favor, I'll sell the 100 barrels I have coming and then drop it. Bwaites if you will please ban my IP address.

[montana]

I apologies if I was confused by my posting above your comments, and that you were calling somebody else little kids from a different forum. Thanks for not wanting to hurt my feeling's , it makes me feel all snug inside. Any name calling or derogatory remarks tend to send people away from a useful and friendly discussion boards like this forum.

[65man]

I'm guessing you have a problem with reading comprehension.
I was talking about screen names because bwaites posted about opinions and sceen names then I said kids about the kids on arfcom who think the 300blk is a 100yd cartridge.


I'm not talking to you now there montana I wouldn't want you to take this personally.
In 06 I stopped by here to talk about loads that I had been using, getting good velocity and accuracy. Just some little tricks learned from my father who was a benchrest guy and some things I had picked up over the 25 years i had been reloading. Things that reduce pressure and increase accuracy. The very first words replied to me were "are you crazy!" You're going to blow yourself up! You can't load above Bills data. Then from there everything went down hill really quick. It took me about 3 days to develop a dislike for most of the people here and in turn the Grendel and all things that go along with it. How many others have felt the same way because they don't follow in the exact same footsteps as Bill A.? There are very few companies making the Grendel or anything that will shoot Grendel ammo, there are very few companies that are loading Grendel ammo. The less people see the Grendel and Grendel ammo in the store the less will buy it, the less stores will carry ammo because no one is asking for it.
Pyramid type expansion can work both ways, they can multiply beyond belief and make a product a huge success or they can go in reverse and collapse on themselves.
I'll do you guys a favor, I'll sell the 100 barrels I have coming and then drop it. Bwaites if you will please ban my IP address.

Why not make a 6.5 grendel saami specs (i am talking about the .297 and 7.62X39 BOLT is that right? or you are talking different brand) and don't confuse people like me on all different 6.5 grendel barrel ammo compatible out there, so all the parts all compatible to each other when I need barrel or bolts or factory ammo.

thanks

[sneaky one]

Hey, there is no reason to turn this forum into the ( every- other caliber cry baby network, drop it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) This is the 6.5 grendel forum. Most of us- don't care of those odd bolts- head spacing issues. The 6.5 Grendel- Sammi spec's are there for all to see. If you need to cry about something non Grendel related-, find the proper place. It's not here. Move on. Let it go!

[infidel470]

Wow, please all of you go back to page one and read the posts on one go and get an idea how it sounds. I`m interested in getting a 6.5 barrel with Big/Superbolt bolt and barrel extension and get a bit more velocity out of the round ( I`m aware of the risks ), it is still in the realm of the wishful thinking. That is what kept my interest in the tread, but for crying out loud - 8 pages of mud slinging?!? WTF! Did anybody answered the valid question about the differences of the steel? Did anyone learn something new? Come on... Can we go back to the purpose of the tread and learn about .297 neck`s application and benefits and then condemn it :-)... Please let`s be civil!

[Tooreal]

It really is CHILDISH to SLAM anyone else that does Not happen to be talking about an Alexander arms rifle! The comments about my posts on a Blach Hole Weaponry Barrel are just childish!! I happen to own 2 6.5 Grendels, one I am waiting to finish building because of a cast on my dominent hand.
Is this an AArms ONLY FORUM????

[LRRPF52]

Looks like someone called in a fire mission on this thread, with coordinated effort. For all viewing, I just wish ARP would use the Grendel Chamber, a bolt made from steel without phosphorous in it, and drive on with what has been tested relentlessly.

A lot of the market will be driven by guys who already have Grendels who want another one. A Krieger, Bartlein, and other select match barrels will shoot tight groups all day long, regardless of what chamber you use, since they are made from superior steel that goes through more selective processes, with more uniform bores, and longer barrel lives.

[Tooreal]

*************** I think what tooreal was trying to relay is that BHW sold the right to one of it's products to ARP based on ARP's excellent reputation, so he wasn't necessarily hi-jacking. Just saying. ***************

Chickenleg, thank you...

I was just saying that BHW sold their Railed Upper rights to that company.. They are using it for the Armigetton series rifle that they are producing, thats all. Not a plug just a fact. It seems like this forum is offended by another brand. I may be posting in the wrong place or several pages away from the "I thought he was just getting another plug in for that other company" comment..

[noone]

Infidel470 is a very close friend of mine, and while I may disagree with him about trying to get more velocity out of the Grendel/6.5 LBC cartridge, I agree with his sentiment about keeping this thread civil. Infidel470 is the fellow who got me into this fine cartridge, and we have enjoyed many rifle matches together.

There is enough mutual respect between us that we can disagree, still have a civilized discussion about the issue and remain friends. It isn't all that hard to do. Not everyone shares the same opinions with us.