Bench technique for consistent grouping with an AR?

[kcb38]

I saw a thread / argument on here a while ago discussing free recoil vs a more conventional style of shooting from a bench but I can't seem to find it. I have been trying to shoot my AR platform Grendel the same way I do with my bolt guns, very lightly pulling the butt pad into my shoulder with the rifle rested on a front bag or mechanical rest and rear bag with ears. That hasn't yielded good results at all. Last night I decided to try pulling the rifle more firmly into my shoulder and the groups definitely tightened up. I'd like to ask our more experienced shooters, how do you all do it? I figured the light touch was the way to go because that reduced input from me to the rifle, hopefully minimizing unwanted movement after the trigger break. I think that works with my bolt guns because of their weight and the fast lock time of the trigger vs that of an AR. Do you all find that you benefit from controlling the rifle more during recoil or do you prefer a light touch?

[mdewitt71]

IMHO... again this is Me, I think people get hung up way too much on bench shooting one hole into the other on paper.
I see gents punching paper and measuring holes then when it comes time to do the real thing whether combat, critter hunting, or in competitions; They can't seem to get it right or fold from outside pressures....
Practice how you plan to shoot by doing it the way you shoot.
I hunt and I am multiple tour Combat Vet - now DOD instructor so, I don't spend a lot of time on the bench.
I do my load developments that way but, that's about it.
I hunt from ground, from blinds, from tripods and bipods so I practice from all of them.
I like the free recoil theory but, I always have my shoulder into my weapon.. more of a happy medium (not too stiff- not loose).
Most rifles act differently sliding back and forth in a slick leather bag on a flat wood sturdy bench than they do off gravel or rocks on a bipod.... or locked into a tripod.
Again Practice each one so you know how the rifle reacts is key in my mind.

[kcb38]

Thanks for that. My interest at this point is to evaluate the rifle, rather than practice more practical forms of shooting. It's a new build that I've been struggling with and I need to identify where the issues lie. It's either me or the rifle. If it's me (most likely), then I want to learn where I can improve. If I can rule out my shooting and I'm still having accuracy issues then I'll have to revisit the build or revise my expectations of it.

[JASmith]

The free recoil velocity is gained in only 0.06 in (1.5 mm) of travel with a 123 gr bullet and muzzle velocity of 2500 fps from an 18" barrel.
(Ref: http://shootersnotes.com/calculator/velocity-estimator/)

That does two things that are bad. The most noticeable is that a "light touch" to the shoulder allows the rifle to get closer to its full recoil velocity, resulting in a harder rap to the shoulder.

Second, the body is part of the rifle system, and the weight of the shoulder affects muzzle jump.

That's why precision shooters always go for a tight buttstock to shoulder weld. Using the classic military sling makes that weld even tighter.

[kcb38]

Second, the body is part of the rifle system, and the weight of the shoulder affects muzzle jump.

That's why precision shooters always go for a tight buttstock to shoulder weld. Using the classic military sling makes that weld even tighter.

I'm not so much concerned about perceived recoil as I am with this aspect and its affect on accuracy. When shooting offhand I always pull a rifle in tight but didn't see the value of it shooting from a rest. I'm learning that it is just as important in both positions. Thanks.

[LR1955]

I saw a thread / argument on here a while ago discussing free recoil vs a more conventional style of shooting from a bench but I can't seem to find it. I have been trying to shoot my AR platform Grendel the same way I do with my bolt guns, very lightly pulling the butt pad into my shoulder with the rifle rested on a front bag or mechanical rest and rear bag with ears. That hasn't yielded good results at all. Last night I decided to try pulling the rifle more firmly into my shoulder and the groups definitely tightened up. I'd like to ask our more experienced shooters, how do you all do it? I figured the light touch was the way to go because that reduced input from me to the rifle, hopefully minimizing unwanted movement after the trigger break. I think that works with my bolt guns because of their weight and the fast lock time of the trigger vs that of an AR. Do you all find that you benefit from controlling the rifle more during recoil or do you prefer a light touch?

kcb:

I hold very hard with a gas operated rifle unless it is very heavy, like my AR-10. Then I hold moderately.

I will pull in pretty firmly and also put a lot of cheek pressure on the stock. Basically, I want the AR held like it was in a vice. I set up the bench position so as to really dominate the AR-15.

That said, one of the better shooters here says he replaces the forend with a type of forend that bench rest guys use. Heavy and flat on the bottom so it slides easily and consistently on a bag cut and shaped to fit the width of the forend. He may also put baby powder on the bag just so it lets the forend slide easier. He said he never holds it very hard at all. The front and rear bags keep it pointed when he pulls the trigger. Identical to bench rest comp.

Unless you want to go through the hassles that the fellow I mentioned went through, your best bet is to spend a lot of time setting up your bench and really dominate the AR-15.

Also, many here have found that a rapid fire approach when shooting for group probably results in more consistency between groups. Five shots in 20 seconds is probably about right.

I group to test loads. Once I find a load I think is good enough for my purposes, you won't see me tinkering with it again unless it is not performing the way I expected.

LR55

[grayfox]

'55s method is what I'm striving for, although not as good a shooter as he is .

I want the AR to be one piece of a rigid system, involving the rifle, butt/shoulder, cheek/head weld, hand/finger grippings, arm tensions.
Same-o, same-o, same-o every time (that's where my learning still occurs!).

And bag/soft rest in front and bag rear (I don't have all the stuff to copy what '55's bench shooter does), not bipod at the bench.
Rigid but not so taut that muscles shake, if that makes any sense.

It's lighter than my other rifles so the movement/kick is a bit more pronounced (sharp/quick, not heavy though), meaning more control needed by me. Those 0.001's of inch at the shot mean inches at the target.

[kcb38]

Thank you gentlemen. I think I'm headed in the right direction now. I'll pull it in tighter while trying not to impart any forces not in line with the bore. I'll do a little dry firing practice at home to try to hone that technique and I'll hope for the best next time I get to the range.

[LR1955]

Thank you gentlemen. I think I'm headed in the right direction now. I'll pull it in tighter while trying not to impart any forces not in line with the bore. I'll do a little dry firing practice at home to try to hone that technique and I'll hope for the best next time I get to the range.

kcb:

Let me ask this question.

Very specifically, what do you focus your attention on when you are shooting a string?

A guy can have a fantastic position built and still perform poorly. Conversely, a guy can have a absolutely horrible position and still perform well.

Depends on what and where his attention is focused.

LR55.

[LR1955]

'55s method is what I'm striving for, although not as good a shooter as he is .

I want the AR to be one piece of a rigid system, involving the rifle, butt/shoulder, cheek/head weld, hand/finger grippings, arm tensions.
Same-o, same-o, same-o every time (that's where my learning still occurs!).

And bag/soft rest in front and bag rear (I don't have all the stuff to copy what '55's bench shooter does), not bipod at the bench.
Rigid but not so taut that muscles shake, if that makes any sense.

It's lighter than my other rifles so the movement/kick is a bit more pronounced (sharp/quick, not heavy though), meaning more control needed by me. Those 0.001's of inch at the shot mean inches at the target.

GF:

It was Stokes who used the classic bench rest set up. He did quite well with it too. I recall he described his technique in at least two threads on bench rest positions. Five or six years ago?

With my AR's that use forend rails, I go with a couple of G.I. sandbags with cat litter in them and a home made rear bag. The issue isn't as much the bags but how well you can get the bags to fit your position on a bench. Not sure who designs some of the benches I have used at various clubs but they must be thinking everyone is a basketball player. The club I belong to now means I have to have three, G.I. sandbags. One to sit on and the other two for use under the forend.

LR55

[grayfox]

I for one, and lots others I'm sure, appreciate all the feedback you give us. Invaluable.

[Kswhitetails]

I have found that the more I load the bipod, the better I do. I have also noticed that I have much to learn on the AR as a bench gun. There are just a few variables, and somehow, by the end of the session, I have tried changing all of them three or four times, never completing the "system".

It's easy to change more than one thing from group to group; I think this is why I do best with a heavily loaded bipod, it removes a few variables from my ability to change. Of course, loading the bipod itself introduces variables...

[LR1955]

I have found that the more I load the bipod, the better I do. I have also noticed that I have much to learn on the AR as a bench gun. There are just a few variables, and somehow, by the end of the session, I have tried changing all of them three or four times, never completing the "system".

It's easy to change more than one thing from group to group; I think this is why I do best with a heavily loaded bipod, it removes a few variables from my ability to change. Of course, loading the bipod itself introduces variables...

KSW:

He, he. Here is how it happens. A shooter approaches this thing with all the best plans. And nothing works well. So he changes something and it doesn't work any better. So he changes a bunch of things and it doesn't work any better. Finally he gets frustrated, slaps down a couple of sand bags, gets in a position that he is comfortable with, and then gets aggressive with that position and his rifle. Force put on it like he means business and his focus on sight picture and the shots. Four or five quick shots, each with a good sight picture and he looks again and sees success. All business like it was his profession.

And he tries it again and doesn't do well. Why? Because instead of getting down to business again, he saw success and thought he could improve on it. So he shifted his focus to some aspect of his shooting that he thought would bring better results and he failed. Shift attention away from the sight picture and shot and a marksman will walk into big time problems.

I go through this periodically but I can catch myself most of the time and go back to what works.

LR55

[grayfox]

Like old-time basketball practicing... shoot 100 free throws every day, go for same, same, same, same...
then do another 100 the next day. Rhythm, focus, "down to business", form, all the same...
Cause with 2 seconds on the clock and you at the line with 2 shots, down by 1......... you get the picture - cold ice in the veins, all business, muscle memory from those 1000's of free throws..... to win the game.

[Klem]

Kcb,

Lot's of good advice already given.

I pull back with the pistol grip while actively pushing forward against it with my shoulder (isometrics). It requires two distinct actions of the trigger hand; pulling back with the lower three fingers and the fine motor skill of pulling the trigger. With the offhand I pull down against the rest/ground. . These AR's are just not heavy enough that you can relax and rely on gravity to prevent them jumping around. Plus the handguard is not wide and flat enough to prevent the rifling from kicking the gun in the opposite direction (it jerks anti-clockwise with every shot). AR handguards are mostly round tubes which is the worst possible shape to prevent this. Bipods mitigate this more than a rest I think. Sometimes I put the trigger finger of the offhand over the top of the handguard and grip the gun against the rest with the thumb underneath the rest, to help keep it from moving.

When I shot F-Class for several years we used to have visitors turn up wanting to try it out. Typically they would wait until the competition was over and then be offered the chance to shoot. They would get down behind the gun and pull the trigger. The gun was already set up and pointing at the target. They would get a bullseye first shot and wonder where all the skill in shooting was (not a V-Bull, a Bullseye). That's because it's a 16lb gun with a three-inch wide flat fore-end with a flat bottom to the stock which you set up to track in the recoil parallel to the sight axis. We preferred cordura rests powdered with talcum powder to reduce friction in the recoil, plus they don't grip the gun like leather does in the rain. In that situation it's best NOT to have your body pushing and pulling the gun too much because you're introducing forces which are hard to keep consistent shot-to-shot. Gravity however is always consistent. Which is why there are weight limits in F-Class, and tracking rules in Bench Rest, to keep it from just being the best gun on the day. We tried all sorts of things to reduce the need to hold the gun. Here's a couple of ideas; one that worked and one that didn't;

Lead in the bottom of the fore-end,
[ATTACH=CONFIG]12470[/ATTACH]

and a row of skateboard bearings trying to reducing the friction of recoil to almost zero (the scores were no better, we think because what was gained in friction reduction was lost in the rest being too hard to absorb bounce),
[ATTACH=CONFIG]12471[/ATTACH]


With a light-weight AR you cannot rely on gravity. Recoil overpowers the weight of the gun, which is why I'm all over the gun like a rash.

[biodsl]

Plus the handguard is not wide and flat enough to prevent the rifling from kicking the gun in the opposite direction (it jerks anti-clockwise with every shot). AR handguards are mostly round tubes which is the worst possible shape to prevent this...with a three-inch wide flat fore-end with a flat bottom to the stock which you set up to track in the recoil parallel to the sight axis.

Just a day or two ago Crosstac announced this product for the Ruger Precision Rifle. The RPR comes with one of those round AR handguards. Perhaps owners are having a difficult time shooting itty-bitty groups.

http://www.crosstac.com/shop-all-product...arca-rail/

[Klem]

Bio,

Good spot with the commercial flat rail. I was wondering when something like that would appear.

$150 is a bit steep though. Here's one knocked-up from a slab of 3" wide stock and a couple of bolts. It's on an AI AX Keymod handguard. A few dollars from a scrap metal merchant. Adds 5lbs to the gun and rides a 3" wide front rest. 3" is a standard for F-Class/Bench Rest with lots of rest bags to choose from at places like Sinclair. There's no width and weights specs on the ARCA Rail but it doesn't look as heavy.
[IMG][/IMG]

The difference with F-Class/Bench Rest is that these things are for load development only and can come off for other uses.

[JASmith]

Klem,

That forend is truly impressive!

At 5lb and being stiff and flat, I can see how you get good results.

The price tag is even more impressive.

[kcb38]

Very specifically, what do you focus your attention on when you are shooting a string?

It's hard to say really. I wind up spreading my attention around from breathing to heartbeat to grip to sight alignment. Then there's being patient enough to wait until it all feels right before squeezing off the shot. Staying focused takes more energy than some folks realize.

the handguard is not wide and flat enough to prevent the rifling from kicking the gun in the opposite direction (it jerks anti-clockwise with every shot). AR handguards are mostly round tubes which is the worst possible shape to prevent this. Bipods mitigate this more than a rest I think. Sometimes I put the trigger finger of the offhand over the top of the handguard and grip the gun against the rest with the thumb underneath the rest, to help keep it from moving...

With a light-weight AR you cannot rely on gravity. Recoil overpowers the weight of the gun, which is why I'm all over the gun like a rash.

I'm in the process of making a front bag rider out of 1" thick PTFE with Magpul T-nuts to address this situation. It won't add much weight but I hope it at least makes it more stable.

And thanks for the continuing advice gentlemen. I can't wait to get back out and spend some quality time with this rifle.

[LR1955]

It's hard to say really. I wind up spreading my attention around from breathing to heartbeat to grip to sight alignment. Then there's being patient enough to wait until it all feels right before squeezing off the shot. Staying focused takes more energy than some folks realize.


I'm in the process of making a front bag rider out of 1" thick PTFE with Magpul T-nuts to address this situation. It won't add much weight but I hope it at least makes it more stable.

And thanks for the continuing advice gentlemen. I can't wait to get back out and spend some quality time with this rifle.

k38:

Thought so. Never understood why people get so focused on breathing and heart rate. You don't have to be focused on breathing to breath. And, you can't control your heart rate.

Advice is cheap.

Set up your bench position so you can get a good sight picture without having to crane your head around or otherwise contort your body.

What ever things you are using to support the rifle -- they must be solid.

When you get behind the rifle, exert solid pressure down with your cheek and back with your firing hand. Liken it to a vice that will not move when the shot is fired.

Load a mag of five and get into your position. Get tight and get a sight picture. Breath in and out and watch how the barrel moves with your breathing. Watch how well you control the movement of the barrel up and down with your breathing. When you are satisfied you have the rifle under control, stop your breathing and let the cross hairs stop in the center. Focus your attention totally on your sight picture and shot. Take a shot, breath in and out once or twice while watching how well you control the movement of the cross hair. Stop, focus on sight picture and shot. Repeat. Do not let yourself get distracted by seeing holes in your target through your scope. Focus totally on your sight picture and shot. Nothing else.

You ought to do just fine.

LR55