02-13-2018, 10:13 PM (This post was last modified: 02-13-2018, 10:21 PM by warp9764.)
Hey everyone! So I finally got to take my new build to the range yesterday and try it out. In short, after a couple FTF (bolt caught on round still partly in the mag) I'm really stuck.
First, a quick rundown of what I've got:
Relevant gun info: AA 18" barrel with mid-length gas system, SLR Ti adjustable gas block, Franklin BFS trigger (comes with 'regular' and 'heavy' buffer springs), Spike's T1 carbine buffer.
Ammo used: Wolf steel-cased (maybe a poor choice for breaking in, in hindsight)
Mag: e-lander 10 round (from AA)
Started with gas block in middle setting, using heavier spring
Seemed finicky, so after a couple shots I swapped in the lighter buffer spring.
2nd FTF the round was mostly in the chamber, but not all the way. Needed a friend to pull down on the charging handle to free the round.
Adjusted the gas block 2 clicks for a bit more gas. Ran a string of 5 shots no problem, then on the 6th...
3rd FTF - where I'm stuck right now. This round is jammed partly in the chamber hard, and my friend couldn't pull the charging handle down. It's STUCK.
Question 1: (Most important) What is my best approach to free the jammed (steel cased) round? Should I mortar it? I'd hate to bash a brand new build so hard on the ground, but I'd also hate to have to pull the whole darn thing apart already. Still, I'll do what's best and with minimal damage.
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Question 2: Potential causes of my FTFs? As noted in the thread above, should I try a heavier buffer, like the T2 (1 step up)? And/or should I try dialing back the gas, or dial it up? Should I leave the lighter spring or go back to the heavier with more gas? Gah - so many combinations, I'm not sure where to start!
02-13-2018, 10:29 PM (This post was last modified: 02-13-2018, 10:39 PM by VASCAR2.)
If you have a stuck bolt on an AR-15 the suggested method for a stuck bolt with a round in the chamber is to put the safety on. If the gun has a collapsable stock close the stock. Then keeping your face away from the muzzle slam the butt of the rifle against the ground. If the round is really stuck it may take a few good wacks. The inertia should unlock the bolt and free it enough to clear the chambered case. This method is called mortaring. I always remove the magazine before motaring an AR-15.
If you left a loaded steel cased round in the chamber there might be a lot of crud or corrosion. Also if the rifle is really dirty or tight because it is new I’d probably get some Kroil penetrating oil on the carrier and towards the bolt, chamber barrel extension. I’d soak the BCG and rifle for a few hours with penetrating oil before trying to mortar the round out. If you don’t have penetrating oil you can use automatic transmission fluid.
I would not try tapping on the charging handle with a mallet to free the bolt. If your not real careful you can bend or break the charging handle.
With an adjustable gas block you don’t need a heavier buffer, you adjust the gas block to permit enough gas to cycle the action. I would use the standard weight buffer if this is a carbine length buffer tube with the supplied carbine buffer spring.
When setting an adjustable gas block I start with the gas block almost completely closed. I load one round in the mag fire one round. If the round ejects but doesn’t lock the bolt back on the mag catch I open the gas block more until the bolt locks back on an empty mag.
Wolf steel cased ammo produces a light recoil impulse. I useually open the gas block a little more once the bolt locks back with the bolt catch on an empty mag.
Yes, I have e-lander 10 and 24 round magazines, as well as another brand (can't remember at the moment) 5 round mag. I'll definitely try them once I get the jammed round freed up!
Vascar2, thanks for the tips! Nothing sat in the chamber - the ammo is new and the rifle was virgin and recently lubed up prior to taking it to the range.
I'll get a lot more lube in there around the the bolt and barrel extension and then try a safe mortar as you described!
The picture in the thread you referred to showed the bolt going over the head of the cartridge case. This issue is usually caused by insufficient gas or a bad mag where the cartridge isn’t raised fast enough to be pushed forward by the closing BCG. I suspect you don’t have the gas block opened enough, with insufficient gas the bolt carrier doesn’t go back far enough to get the required momentum from the buffer spring to force a round into the chamber. On a tight new build a cartridge can be difficult to extract.
The ejector mod is a good idea and I did this mod to one of my bolts and helped.
Let us know if you get the round out of the chamber warp9764. The penetrating oil won’t hurt anything but I’d probably run some patches through the bore and swab out the chamber after you get the stuck round out of the chamber. Wolf ammo can leave the rifle real dirty.
VASCAR2 Wrote:The picture in the thread you referred to showed the bolt going over the head of the cartridge case. This issue is usually caused by insufficient gas or a bad mag where the cartridge isn’t raised fast enough to be pushed forward by the closing BCG. I suspect you don’t have the gas block opened enough, with insufficient gas the bolt carrier doesn’t go back far enough to get the required momentum from the buffer spring to force a round into the chamber. On a tight new build a cartridge can be difficult to extract.
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One followup comment/question, Vascar since too little gas could be part of this type of problem doesn't it suggest that for an adjustable gas block, you might want to start full open and close down a click at a time as you shoot instead of fully closed to start with? That's one reason why I started fully open with mine, although I don't have lots of experience with AGBs... just have 2 of them. Thanks.
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02-14-2018, 12:23 AM (This post was last modified: 02-14-2018, 12:26 AM by bj139.)
If this is a new build, clean your chamber with a 44 cal bronze brush and solvent. There is often some goo in a new barrel which causes sticking.
To mortar, collapse the buttstock so you won't break it and pulling baclk on the charging handle slam the butt on the ground or a sturdy bench,
I do it all the time with a manually operated AR.
Use plenty of lube on a new AR. Just spray it all over the bolt and shoot. Not in the chamber.
Mortar no worky?
Lube your stuck round both top and bottom with light oil.
Let it sit while you eat a snack and drink a beverage.
Mortar again.
Nope?
Mortar using hammer and wood block against your expensive charging handle.
No joy?
Release the pivot and locking pins.
Gently separate upper receiver from lower receiver.
Use a taped up long, wide standard screwdriver up the mag well opening (or side opening) to pry the BC back and out.
Round falls out?
Kick yourself for not lubing the gas rings better and curse yourself for not getting the chrome-lined cylinder on the bolt carrier. Replace any broken rings. Lube them. Lube them. Lube them. Inspect bolt carrier for gouging inside the cylinder.
BCG is out, but round is still stuck in chamber? Heh... Sucks, yeah?
If you're the cautious type, vise your upper and use a caliber-sized hard wooden dowel and hammer to drive the bimetal bullet back into the case and shake out the powder. Keep your face away from the muzzle.
If you're lucky, just tapping the bullet from the top set it free.
No?
Use your screwdriver again, this time twist it against the case head to gently pry the case out of the chamber.
The case is now out.
Seriously. The case is out.
Inspect your bore, ensuring the bullet is indeed out of the barrel.
Inspect your chamber for anything left in there and any gouging.
Drop a round into your chamber and see if it drops it out.
Swirl the chamber with brush and solvent.
Drop a round into your chamber and see if it drops it out again.
Check your bolt face/head spacing.
Check your cartridge case for strange marks indicating ammo or chamber issues.
Report back here with your harrowing tale of heroism and pix/video.
Thank you everyone VERY MUCH for the tips, especially about pulling the charging handle while mortaring!
VASCAR2, regarding my first FTF I did add more gas (2 clicks) after that and it seemed to clear that issue up. The 2nd and 3rd FTF were jammed rounds, which may be aided by the ejector mod (once I clear the rifle). Letting some oil soak in now before attempting to mortar. I don't have a second set of hands around, but I do have a good workbench in the garage - I'll use that!
rwh Wrote:You can wrap a large screwdriver in duct tape, insert at the front of the bolt carrier and twist. That should get the bolt open without much fuss.
Warp97:
I would do as RWH advises if I were you. Given the bolt is only partially into battery as in the picture, the screw driver technique is the easiest and safest way to go.
A short piece of 2x4 about 8 inches long can help.
At the range, when shooting manually, not semiauto, I put the butt on my chest at the bench and pull to the back the left side of the charging handle with my left hand and wack the right side of the charging handle back with the 2x4. It usually doesn't take much.
Everyone, thanks again for all the help! I managed to free it using lots of lube and mortaring against my workbench while pulling on the handle.
So here's an update on my ACTUAL issue. It turns out it _wasn't_ a jammed round! There was no round in the chamber (why it didn't pick up the round is a separate issue, and I'll be trying my 3 different mag types to see if any perform better, then look at feed lips, etc.).
The actual issue is that the bolt _itself_ was jamming up while trying to go into battery. I thought I had sufficiently lubed everything, but apparently it wasn't nearly enough. After lubing everything VERY well (especially the gas rings), the bolt now goes in and out very smoothly. I think one of my issues was [obviously] lack of experience in that my other (first) AR is a Sig 516 gas piston system, so there is no gas actually blowing into the chamber. I'm guessing because of this sufficient lube is much more important, and I didn't use enough. I've shot thousands of rounds from my 516 and never had this issue, but I'm still a noob when it comes to building and troubleshooting my own build.
I'll get it back to the range next week and report in, after I properly work on setting my gas block for semi-auto (I'll ignore the BFS function for now and work on getting semi-auto running smoothly).
Great to hear you've gotten it free, the issue addressed, and lesson learned. I tend to forget to lube while at the range, but I try to remember a drop of lube or two every 80-100 rounds at the range lightly. I've never gone more than 120 rounds at a time, and never had this issue.
There are all kinds of reports of this on the boards. The consensus seems to be, ar15s like to be lubed. I saw a guy once talk about if nothing else, pee on the BCG and keep going. There are lubes that make some difference, I was recently turned onto this:
So much better than oil. Stays put, and action stays smooth. I've read lots of testimonies about it's use over in the sands. I think it was designed to be for a full auto lube, which it seems to make guys happy doing. The syringe is re-fillable, and is actually really nice to add to the range bag for all my firearms.
Honestly, I don't think it matters what you use, guys have used ATF/MOBIL1 mixes, straight engine oils, greases, Remoil, Molygrafs, etc all to good effect. Just remember to keep the bolt and extension slick enough and this issue should be solved for you. (the caveat would be to avoid natural oils in cold operating temperatures - Froglube comes to mind)
The one concern I have is any potential galling inside the BCG bore, or the gas rings being damaged. Be sure to make certain there aren't any potential problems that could cause the gas rings to seize up again even after lubrication. Unlikely, but could create issues with wear or early failure.
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