Thank you HuntTxhogs for your testing and posting results.
The protocols that were used - Pull down a Wolf Steel Case 100gr, dump the powder, chamfer the neck, put the powder back in, seat to safe COAL. With the Pull/Push, I seated the same as the Wolf 100gr COAL. On the heavier pills, I seated to a save Ogive that I am running.
Please note - I was not having a good day, and should have stopped after my blind test (Hornady factory 123gr ELD Black - .465 MOA group on a cold clean bore). I was having a hell of a time getting a good final firing position, and had shot 10 rounds of 5, of my own load development prior to these. I had several awesome groups going, then pulled a "Stonhendge" .
Results -
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10980[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]10981[/ATTACH] *****NOTE**** The push pull on the factory Wolf load was probably pushing my luck safety wise using a different 100gr bullet, and only going to COAL, not Ogive, nevermind I'm stuffing a .264 pill back into a steel case that was holding a .2619 pill. I did not re-size these cases as I did in my initial testing to try to match case neck tension. Duplicate this at your own risk
*************
The larger SMK and Lapua were loaded on top of 29.4 grains of Wolf Powder, and were very unpleasant to shoot (very sharp recoil). If I were to do that again, or wanted to use those bullets, I would be sizing the necks, and doing a proper load workup.
I did not reset the chrono for the heavier pills in 5 round groups, and wish I had. I shot two different groups of the 123 Scenars to hope for a better group sample since the two 120's were ugly.
The first 5 of the 123 avg was 2471, An ES of 21, and SD of 8. The second 5 avg was 2491, an ES of 58 and SD of 22.
My testing has me convinced that it is worth the time and effort to stuff a quality pill back on top of the case and powder. Wolf Ammo - $0.24 per round delivered. Stuff a $.027 Hornady 123 grain back on top at the proper charge (load development), and you have a sub MOA steel cased round for $0.51 to $0.55 each, if you don't count your labor. Even stuffing a 95-100 grain back in without testing might be doable for good results - just play with the seating depth to see what your rifle likes. I don't know that I would go over 100gr on a different pill without proper load development.
You have answered my questions as well so Ill chalk it up as money well spent.
You may have mentioned it before, but what was the test platform?
The 120 SMK group looked promising, are those the flying henges?
I now have a project to occupy my down time after the cold sets in. Now I just have to convince the indoor range that while it may be steel case, its not bi metal jacket bullets and thereby have a warm range to play in this winter. Next season Ill have good lose-em-in-the-woods rounds. And a pistol to use them in!
Theres never enough time.
Maybe Hornady will come out with an American Gunner steel case and all this effort will be for nothing. Ha.
I was wondering if this idea (wolf case/primer + name-brand bullets and powder) would work and am glad to see that it does. I like the idea of hunting and not chasing the brass.
For me stage 2 would be powder-coating the wolf bullets, sizing them to .264 and working up good loads with the salvaged powder. I hate to waste anything.
Randy99CL Wrote:I was wondering if this idea (wolf case/primer + name-brand bullets and powder) would work and am glad to see that it does. I like the idea of hunting and not chasing the brass.
For me stage 2 would be powder-coating the wolf bullets, sizing them to .264 and working up good loads with the salvaged powder. I hate to waste anything.
Randy99CL - My first run doing the load workup gave me two awesome nodes to work with using Hornady 123gr ELD and recycling the Wolf case and powder. Even this Redux probably would have been some excellent groups but as I stated in the opening, I was not having a good day. Since when a person is doing ladder loads they disregard the horizontal drift, and only focus on the vertical, there are multiple examples here that well could be .5 MOA or better groups. I am going to play around with seating depth in the higher node from my first outing.
Within .3gr powder, I had a difference of 2fps average, and a SD of 7 and near 75fps faster than Hornady factory ammo. I am hoping seating depth will correct the pressure limits signs.
Let me know if you want to wander down that powder coating road. I have est 700 Wolf Pills that I will not be using.
Sticks Wrote:Randy99CL - Let me know if you want to wander down that powder coating road. I have est 700 Wolf Pills that I will not be using.
Wow, 700! Yes, I have been researching powder coating for a while and expect that it would work. It adds a couple of thousanths of a very tough coating that holds up to the resizing die and being fired (and rifled) at 2500fps.
Actually, it works well with lead bullets. As long as it bonds to the jacket of those Wolves we're good.
It will be a month or two before I'm ready to test this. I could do the coating as soon as I get a cheap toaster oven but am still setting up my reloading bench that will allow me to resize and load them.
My plans are to get into bullet casting (with custom .264 molds) and powder coating is the revolutionary process that makes cast rifle bullets possible.
Coating bullets is cheap and easy. Once I'm ready I'll contact you and we'll work out the details. I'll coat all your bullets, keep some and send the rest back to you.
I [foolishly] bought a 500 pack of Wolf, and also got some off another member here that was unloading a bunch of ammo he had. Once I found out how crappy the groups were, and then the why...I am just going to pull down all of them (200 left), find the sweet spot for 123 ELD pills and load the rest back up for shooting matches, target, what ever.
I need to get a .265 expander ball and dig out my Lee Loadmaster and process all the cases for neck sizing to get consistent neck tension. Right now I am running them through my RCBS bushing die on the singe stage, and any time I hit stiff resistance, I cull that case and move on. About a 25% attrition rate.
Randy99CL Wrote:Wow, 700! Yes, I have been researching powder coating for a while and expect that it would work. It adds a couple of thousanths of a very tough coating that holds up to the resizing die and being fired (and rifled) at 2500fps.
Actually, it works well with lead bullets. As long as it bonds to the jacket of those Wolves we're good.
It will be a month or two before I'm ready to test this. I could do the coating as soon as I get a cheap toaster oven but am still setting up my reloading bench that will allow me to resize and load them.
My plans are to get into bullet casting (with custom .264 molds) and powder coating is the revolutionary process that makes cast rifle bullets possible.
Coating bullets is cheap and easy. Once I'm ready I'll contact you and we'll work out the details. I'll coat all your bullets, keep some and send the rest back to you.
I tried a cheap toaster oven and found the temps weren't even in different areas of the oven. I'd suggest a cheap convection oven for better results.
tommag Wrote:I tried a cheap toaster oven and found the temps weren't even in different areas of the oven. I'd suggest a cheap convection oven for better results.
Hey, thanks! I will look for one of those.
So you have experience with PC bullets, what do you think of this project? Do you think that the coating will bond with the Wolf jackets?
11-30-2017, 03:43 AM (This post was last modified: 11-30-2017, 03:54 AM by tommag.)
Randy99CL Wrote:Hey, thanks! I will look for one of those.
So you have experience with PC bullets, what do you think of this project? Do you think that the coating will bond with the Wolf jackets?
Yes, as long as they're free of any oils. A quick acetone wash will makes sure of that. Not all pc works with the shake and bake method. Harbor freight red is reported to work. I buy my powders from smoke4320 at cast boolits forum. He does the research and sells stuff that works. Pc costs so little that I don't mind paying a little bit extra. If you're not already a member, I'd suggest going to castboolits and reading the sub forum titled coatings and alternatives. Those guys pioneered pc long before the ammo manufacturers picked it up. Pc will definitely increase the diameter, up to .006, in my experience.
It just occurred to me that some of that com bloc stuff has laquer on the brass. If that were on the bullets, it might interfer with the pc process.
If you try shake and bake, be sure to use the right kind of plastic bowl (recycling mark #5, I think.) Smoke sells airsoft bbs of the right kind of plastic to induce the static charge.
Thanks again! Yes I'd heard about the #5 plastic and had planned to try Harbor Freight red as it's right around the corner from me.
I might get a vibratory tumbler for applying the powder, I saw that some are pretty cheap.
And I've considered that the bullets would need an acetone wash and possibly an abrasive tumble to clean and roughen the surface for the powder.
Thanks for the tip to the forum, I'll definitely check it out. Lots to learn.
Bullet casting and coating is important to me as I'm retired with a small fixed income and 6.5 ammo is expensive (ignoring the mostly-useless Wolf). I have a lot more time than money and casting bullets can drop the price of a reload from forty+ cents to less than 15 cents each.
I want to get some Wolf to break in my new gun (and barrel). Last week I found a dealer that was selling 12 boxes for $60 with free shipping. Didn't have the money then, tried to find it today (to order on the 1st) and can't remember who it was. Oh well.
Sticks Wrote:Kind of like reloading, often the cost of getting set up, and upgrades never gets paid off from the money that you think you are saving. Be careful.
Sticks Wrote:Kind of like reloading, often the cost of getting set up, and upgrades never gets paid off from the money that you think you are saving. Be careful.
I'm just getting into reloading and have resigned myself that. I figure if I start reloading early enough in my shooting life, shoot a fair amount of times per year, and literally keep the same equipment until it's time for me move onto the next world - maybe I will have broken even. I think reloading simply becomes another hobby, and 'saving money' is just like justifying buying another gun for whatever reason.
11-30-2017, 09:41 PM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2017, 05:30 AM by Randy99CL.)
Yes, you guys are right.
I handloaded back in the '80s but wasn't in a position where I could shoot very much and eventually sold the equipment. There have been decades when I rarely pulled a trigger. But since I retired and moved to NM I can shoot everything (including the shotgun sports) pretty much every day. And the shooting sports are my only hobby (more like an obsession).
Yes, I know you don't usually save any money by reloading. You spend as much or more but it allows you to shoot a lot more and get a lot better. And handloading is a hobby in itself; chasing that perfect load for each of your firearms is fun and worth the effort. There is a lot of satisfaction in a good group on target or quick kill in the field with ammo you loaded yourself.
But if you start early enough, and shoot enough, you can eventually save enough to pay off the equipment. Depends on how much and what you shoot but look at those who compete and fire thousands of rounds a month.
But someone who only hunts or shoots casually probably won't ever make it worthwhile.
And BTW, I originally started because in the late '70s I bought a .220 Swift and the only factory ammo was Norma (big bucks).
Randy99CL Wrote:And handloading is a hobby in itself; chasing that perfect load for each of your firearms is fun and worth the effort. There is a lot of satisfaction is a good group on target or quick kill in the field with ammo you loaded yourself.
Very well said. I am still so new I have no idea what I'm actually doing. I like to think I do... I'm sure that will never change... Anyhow, your sentiments here mirror my reloading adventure to a T. Glad to read you typing out my thoughts on some online message board. Makes me very self aware...
I've watched a lot of those videos and have a good concept of the process for loading fresh but I don't have much idea on what steps are needed for replacing the pills on Wolf steel. This is really pertinent to me since I have a lot of Wolf steel.
Trying to reprime a Wolf case is not worth the effort (and mess since the hydraulic method works best) IMO. It can be done, but that is a spooky amount of labor for a single case, let alone hundreds or thousands.
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