Who actually uses the SAAMI reamer on AR barrels?

[smokinghole]

I'm not one to avoid paying for quality, I tend to wear redwing boots, a filson jacket, and have some really nice hand made pipes. Here is where my perception of grendel being an expensive build based on barrel alone. There seem to be very reputable barrel makers making a range of barrels from low, to mid, to high end for a variety of calibers from 5.56, .300blk, .308 and so forth. With the grendel I might be looking or a mid range Toyota (reliable well built, yada yada) but I finding only Lexus (premium leather and all that jazz, really nice but not absolutely necessary) . I'm a detail oriented person and I'm not going to buy a non-SAAMI at this point. So either I drop the money for one of the match barrels (seems to be only option) or I switch calibers and find me a reputable mid range barrel. This is the beauty of a free market, choices. It's just that for some reason the grendel market is very small and the only makers using SAAMI reamers are the high end match barrel machinists.

I understand that the reamer doesn't influence the barrel price. The issue is that only the best match barrel makers seem to be using the SAAMI reamer. I realized that all Lilja barrels are the same prices as any other caliber. It's just that a Lilja barrel costs X and if I got a more common caliber I assume I could find a "toyota" level barrel for X-$300. That is all.

Here's another thought. If the caliber is to increase further in popularity with the proper SAAMI chamber I could see more people getting into if if there were mid level barrels. It's just like any other product or market I think. People come in for or are attracted by some lower cost offerings, they begin to like it, and then they end up buying Kreiger and Lilja. Now if someone wants to get in, they pretty much have to go straight to Kreiger/Lilja for a SAAMI chamber. Just an observation from a unbiased guy new to the caliber that is not a long range shooter . It applies to pipes/pipe tobacco, cigars, and craft beer (I'm a brewer and former Cigar shop employee), and I'm sure many other "hobby" type product markets. Introduce new comers to good mid-level cost product and you tend to keep them coming back and you can watch them buy more product and more expensive product. Unless barrel making is different there has to be well made mid level barrels on the way to high quality higher end barrels. There were good $4-$5 cigars just as there are good $15 smokes.

If I do continue with the build it will be with Mark at PF.

[keystone183]

There are quite a few "mid level" barrels out there. And if someone didn't tell you there were somewhat variant chambers (and you didn't get a bad one from a shoddy operation), you'd likely never know the difference. You are missing the forest looking at all the trees....

[smokinghole]

I get it, there are variants out there but I want a saami chamber. Its that simple. Some barrels are grendel some are variants. If what I have researched is true the saami chamber will work with a larger range of projectiles, and I like flexability.

If the saami chamber didnt offer anything why would have a company spent the effort and money to make the chamber?

[keystone183]

I started off in the same boat as you. I now have 4 different chambers. Again, if you just bought a barrel and shot it, reloaded for it, etc. without ever coming to the interwebs, you'd be happy as a hog in slop.

There is a reason there was such a dust-up over this. But it does not concern you or I.

No matter the chamber as long as it was correctly cut, i suspect you will be happy. For all practical purposes, it does not matter.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthrea...f-Variants

[Drifter]

I've had good results from a BHW barrel chambered in 264 LBC with Type 2 bolt. Main reason I let it go was because I didn't want to keep brass separate from a SAAMI Grendel. With the different sizes in chamber necks, I was concerned about consistent neck tension when resizing mixed brass. If sticking with one barrel, I would be plenty happy with a BHW. Mine shot sub-moa with a variety of bullets and loads.

[chase]

first off let me apologize to PF. I hear all of this back and forth talk about SAAMI. And I just want to make sure I am making the right choice. Now as to what is being talked about here the way I see it if you're looking for something just to bang around them what do you want the 6.5 giendel four. I thought the purpose of the Grendel was to push the limits of the AR 15 platform. If you're looking to test your skills of pusher your limits that what is the problem with paying top dollar for a top barrel . Otherwise why bother.

[sneaky one]

smoking hole, go with the PF barrel- then you can send us a report , asap!? It will be fine, we are all cool with an odd result--- we can adjust powder charges to make it better! Hop in dude!

[smokinghole]

Well after almost going 5.56 for a barrel I found out Lilja had some barrels on their facebook page going for VERY good prices with the .264lbc chamber. I looked at a lot of drawings read more and decided as some suggested, I don't care about the compound throat. So I picked up an already cerakoted black Lilja 311 contour for $250. I almost went with a 318 profile but something about the 311 being already black cerakote made it an easier choice. The difference between the barrels was a few ounces or a couple inches. I doubt I'd ever end up shooting in a situation where the extra 2" of length is going to matter for me.

[PigOPs]

Btw. The "type II" in the Sabre description is referring to the bolt face depth. It has the compound throat and is headspaced for .136" bolt face.

[LRRPF52]

I'll be captain obvious here, but Alexander Arms of course uses the SAAMI reamer. I and another forum member were at a local range yesterday shooting 4 different 6.5 Grendel's.

With the 22" Lilja SAAMI chambered bull fluted barrel directly from Lilja/ Seekins billet set receiver build I did for him, I shot a rapid string at 100yds with a cadence like this:

One-and-a-two-and-a-three-and-a-four-and-a-five.

2nd through 5th rounds were into .3", 1st round opened the group to .6" @ 100yds. He shot a 5rd group with it slow-fire that was smaller than that. Winds were really heavy, with stiff enough gusts that I had to weigh down and anchor my soft cases (filled with mags and ammo already), and my spotting scope ocular cap blew off the tripod where I had it pinned.

My little lightweight 17.6" Grendel with the SAAMI chamber was able to print a .984" 5rd group in those winds. Most groups were no bigger than 1.5", when I let inconsistencies in my position factor in, which was hard to avoid with the wind blowing on me. AA cut that chamber for me in the 17.6" Lilja barrel. 3rd groups are easy to keep sub-MOA, but I like to see a larger picture of how I and the gun work together, and extend my ability to be consistent. If I shot from a rest with it, it would be easier to group with.

I will also say that after comparing a 7.62x39 bolt that was used for my friend's 6mm Grendel build, the .136" bolt face is the more sensible way to go because it allows you to have a more substantial extractor lip mass, as well as a large enough groove for the thicker Grendel rims.

[smokinghole]

Are you saying your accuracy is a result of the SAAMI chamber or that Lilja makes great barrels? You may have only ranked as 2nd Lt Obvious based on my interpretative skills. Funny right?

[LRRPF52]

The SAAMI chamber is designed to handle a wide range of different 6.5mm projectile shapes and lengths considering the AR15 magazine well limitations on COL, and the resultant jump to the lands if you use long VLD bullets with a conventional chamber that was also meant to handle short tangent type bullets.

It does that extremely well, and we see this consistent behavior moving forward. Think of it like this...

If I wanted to shoot a 95gr varmint bullet loaded out as long as possible for the AR15 mag well, the throat would have to be set up for that.

Now let's say I want to shoot a 123gr Scenar, with a very Secant ogive with a long nose to it, the jump to the lands would be very long, and accuracy would likely suffer. What if there was a way to have both? That's what $10,000 in reamers and relentless Research, Development, Test, and Evaluation resulted in: a compound throat that will handle extreme ranges in projectile shape.

This is a particularly important issue with the 6.5mm from a short case in the AR15 running at sustainable pressures. A lot of other cartridges have much shorter ogives and little COL variance with a fairly standard ogive profiles and lengths. With most 6.5mm's, even dating to the late 1800's, we see an unusually long projection of the bullet from the case. This is true with the 6.5x55 Mauser, 6.5x54 Mannlicher-S, and the 6.5x52 Carcano.




6mm Lee Navy, 6.5mm Arisaka, 6.5mm Carcano, 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schönauer, 6.5x54R Mannlicher, 6.5x55 Mauser (first 6 left to right).

Those legacy cartridges had a lot to do with driving the types of projectiles that were made for the 6.5mm bore of course, and the unusually high SD's and BC's of the 6.5mm attracted the more perceptive shooters and hunters to them. With around 150 different 6.5mm projectiles already out there, the shortest possible case with the most case capacity that would still fit in the AR15 and stagger in a magazine seemed like a promising idea.

To capitalize on the wide range of bullets that would naturally attract everyone from varmint slayers to competitive shooters, and medium game hunters in between, the challenge was really about finding a throat that could step up to the task, without having to deeply seat one type of bullet in the case as much. After lots of hair-pulling, frustration, testing, more testing, and thoughts of ditching the whole matter entirely, the compound angle became the solution, and it worked very well.

In my personal shooting and hand loading with this cartridge, I have seen consistent performance no matter what bullet type I shoot through it, ranging from 90gr TNT, to 129gr SST, and a lot of bullets in between. While those of us who are working on new projectiles being introduced to the market work up and test loads, we continue to see the same type of exceptional accuracy performance, which is a testament to the success of the compound throat design.

Yes, you can get excellent results with other chambers that work really well with certain projectiles seated to depths appropriate for those projectiles. The .264 LBC-AR is an example of that, and was designed around the 123gr SMK loaded to reasonable Grendel magazine allowable COL. The neck is a little tighter at .295", and not as forgiving as the Grendel's .300" throat when it comes to fouling and neck variations, but the guns shoot well if built by someone who knows what they are doing.

My .260 Remington has a custom throat for Scenar and VLD profile bullets loaded from an SR25 magazine, and it shoots them amazingly well as it was designed at 2.800" COL. It hasn't, and never will see a single round of factory ammunition because most of the lighter and 120gr hunting bullets, or older target bullets with tangent ogives will jam into the rifling and spike the pressure.

I had a .308 AR10 built the same way, with the 155gr Scenar specifically in mind. Any other factory ammo will pierce or blow primers, and bullets get pulled when trying to manually extract an unfired cartridge.

Since the SAAMI compound throat reamer has the double angle to the throat, it takes a sense of attention-to-detail and pride in one's work as a rifle builder to maintain accountability of what is going on with the reamer, but that is true of many chamberings, .223 vs. 5.56 for example, or any of the .308 and 7.62 NATO variants, and back to the .260 Remington or 6.5 Creedmoor.

If you are mass volume manufacturer who makes money off of volume and lower quality, then we're already talking about a product that needs a dedicated call center with customer service reps ready to handle upset patrons who are having problem after problem with just their worn reamer-cut 5.56 and 7.62 NATO barrels. Several companies come to mind, but none of them have the call center.

So the idea that this is something particular to the 6.5 Grendel has not been my experience at all with almost every caliber of rifle I have. What I have seen with off-the-shelf guns over the years is that headspace is rarely correct, concentricity is absent, threads and shoulders are not true, chambers don't match what's listed on the barrel or receiver (.223 vs. 5.56 especially), and other basic errors are commonly present. We're in a rare time in history with increasing demand for just the basic specs to be correct, while capacity of the industry to deliver that is diminishing, no matter what caliber or product you are looking at.

[LRRPF52]

Short answer: Lilja makes superb barrels, and the SAAMI chamber helps shoot a wide range of pills accurately. In the end, the shooter is the biggest factor, but I want the best I can get as a shooter.

[smokinghole]

Do you own a non-SAAMI? Just playing devils advocate.

A chamber that shoots 160 different projectiles at different weights and lengths must be magic. In my life experience one size fits all while potentially convenient will come up short for enough applications that would guide me towards something more specialized. I don't plan on launching anything smaller than 100gr bullets, and likely not lighter than 120. The sweet spot seems to be in the 120gr range of bullets. If I wanted fast varmint rounds I would probably go for a smaller and faster cartridge. 556 and 6.8 come to mind. To me this round is ideal for medium to long range. I am new to it and almost left it behind because of the borderline elitist lecturing about how awesome the SAAMI chamber is and how I should drop $800 or more on a 1/4 moa barrel. Its weird when the other chambers are obviously just fine shooters if not just as accurate.

I see you post the low bullet weight argument with the SAAMI chamber alot. How often do you load varmint bullets to make that virtue valuable? You seem to push the 1000yd capability of your builds and I know you aren't doing that with short varmint projectiles.

Its almost like I am being shunned for not going SAAMI. I thought this forum of 6.5 grendel enthusiasts would be happy another person was using the cartridge whether its .264lbc or Grendel II. Seems to not be the case though. Am I sone kind of infidel since I chose to save serious coin? The $ saved will buy me a modest loading setup (prob lee classic turret) and ammo/components.

[PigOPs]

Honestly. I'm sure your barrel with shoot one hole groups if you find a good load. I feel like the sentiment around here is that Bill A worked so hard on the design that it needs to be both celebrated and protected. I have both. Many on here do. Your barrel will be fantastic... As will the one I ordered. Haha.

ETA: there's a pic somewhere on here with a one hole 5 shot group out of one of the .264LBC group buy barrels.

[NugginFutz]

Its almost like I am being shunned for not going SAAMI. I thought this forum of 6.5 grendel enthusiasts would be happy another person was using the cartridge whether its .264lbc or Grendel II. Seems to not be the case though. Am I sone kind of infidel since I chose to save serious coin? The $ saved will buy me a modest loading setup (prob lee classic turret) and ammo/components.

Sorry you're feeling that way, smokinghole. My experience has been quite the opposite. There is no cash register at the end of the line, and nobody here is on commission. There are many of the horde who don't even own a SAAMI grendel, including yours truly. I've been made to feel nothing but welcome, and that has nothing to do with my choice of chambering. There have been a few who have tried to make hay out of some genuine concerns for people's safety, but I have yet to see any genuine elitism. (Pride in product? Yes. Snobbery? No.)

Having said that, there are a variety of opinions here, same as anywhere. Some believe the compound throat is better, whereas others prefer the conventional throat. Ultimately, though, the Ford v. Chevy stuff ends when someone has a need or is looking for technical help. I've never once seen someone stop trying to help if they discovered an "infidel", nor have I seen anyone being told their rifle was crap.

If I had any advice at all, I'd suggest pm'ing whoever is giving you that impression and clearing the air. You might be surprised how nice the people around here can be.

[bwaites]

Having had both, I found that the 264 LBC, (I've had 2 different barrels, one of them a Lilja) is simply pickier to load for. The LBC's tend to like longer bullets, but I did find a blazer load with a 107 Sierra.

I can load most bullets to mag length in the SAAMI chamber, and almost every bullet between 95 grains and 129 grains (thats the heaviest I've shot) will go under 1 MOA.

There is nothing wrong with the LBC chamber, just think of it as a tighter, more bench rest type chamber that requires a little more work to find the best load. I like working up loads, so I have no issues with that.

Many shooters are new to AR type accurate rifles, and most of us want them to have as easy a time as possible when they try to shoot the tiny groups the Grendel is capable of. The SAAMI chamber seems to make that more possible earlier in their experience.

When I started shooting the Grendel years ago, 6.5 bullets that were in the weight range were tough to come by, so I loaded everything I could find between 85 and 129 grains. Most shot well. At one point, with my first Grendel, I shot every factory load available into groups that were sub MOA. (Well, except for Wolf Soft points, which were crappy).

I actually don't want that chamber in a bolt gun, because I think that you probably need a deeper throat to get the absolute most out of what a bolt gun can do, and I would load especially for it, but others feel differently, and I'll buy whatever ends up being built and change barrels if I can't get what I want out of what comes standard.

[smokinghole]

If this group is okay with non-SAAMI chambers I would expect to see more referrals to new people looking to build to more cost effective options. Instead because there are no sub $400 saami options people seem to be guided to $700-$800 barrels. Thats great if you guys have the passion/dedication to drop the coin on that steel. I am a professional brewer at the moment, means average labor wages in manufacturing. So without means I am trying to build a decent rifle but sensibly spending. I may be able to pay $1500 between the barrel and upper but I woumwould rather save the extra for other things.

There seems to be a lot of self contradictory statements made here. That is unless a compound throat is in fact magic. Using common sense and reasoning every chamber type has its preferred rounds. That includes the lauded compound throat so it seems. I am just pointing out the one sidedness for the SAAMI and how loading for your chamber still applies. Unless like i said, the magic makes it special. We use magic water at work, so its possible here too.

[Sputnik]

Sorry you're feeling that way, smokinghole. My experience has been quite the opposite. There is no cash register at the end of the line, and nobody here is on commission. There are many of the horde who don't even own a SAAMI grendel, including yours truly. I've been made to feel nothing but welcome, and that has nothing to do with my choice of chambering. There have been a few who have tried to make hay out of some genuine concerns for people's safety, but I have yet to see any genuine elitism. (Pride in product? Yes. Snobbery? No.)

Having said that, there are a variety of opinions here, same as anywhere. Some believe the compound throat is better, whereas others prefer the conventional throat. Ultimately, though, the Ford v. Chevy stuff ends when someone has a need or is looking for technical help. I've never once seen someone stop trying to help if they discovered an "infidel", nor have I seen anyone being told their rifle was crap.

If I had any advice at all, I'd suggest pm'ing whoever is giving you that impression and clearing the air. You might be surprised how nice the people around here can be.

+1 on this smokinghole. I have received nothing but great guidance and advice from the members here. I have a Lilja group buy barrel just like you got, only I got mine from a group buyer. The guy went and got a replacement barrel and sold me his non spec barrel. He shot great groups with it. I haven't shot my build yet, but I am expecting great results. Several others on this forum have reported super range reports with their 264LBC Lilja barrels and I don't recall anybody being shunned or criticized. I also have a Precision Firearms Neptune V upper with a Bartlein barrel. As one would expect it shoots great. I also have a Liberty group buy barrel that I expected to be a SAAMI Grendel but would jam factory 123 Amax and SST ammo into the lands. It was returned for scraping. I am sure you have heard/read the history of that fiasco and the hard feelings and opinions that adventure created. The big issue there for me was the buyers not receiving what they felt they bought, and the lack of satisfactory answers. Yet many of those barrels shoot like a bargain barrels should. You were warned in another Forum not to drink this cult's Kool-Aid. So read, ask questions, learn, think for yourself, decide for yourself, be happy, and don't drink their beverage either.

[Klem]

Do you own a non-SAAMI?

Its almost like I am being shunned for not going SAAMI. I thought this forum of 6.5 grendel enthusiasts would be happy another person was using the cartridge whether its .264lbc or Grendel II. Seems to not be the case though. Am I sone kind of infidel since I chose to save serious coin? The $ saved will buy me a modest loading setup (prob lee classic turret) and ammo/components.

Yes, I have a Lilja barrel from the first group-buy. I understand they are non-SAAMI chambers but it shoots fine. Given it shoots to my definition of accurate I did not on principle exercise Dan's generous offer of a new barrel.

My spare barrel is a Shilen which is a SAAMI throat. I have yet to fit it and shoot so cannot comment on any comparison. Note everyone, I have one of each so please don't stone me to death. Jokes aside, no-one really cares what chamber you have and only care about what they have. Some care more than others (and are entitled to) but I don't see anything more than robust discussion here about chamber dimensions. Certainly professional enough to be concentrating on the merits of respective arguments rather than the person behind it.

As long as forum members see chambers for what they are, just metal holes, and not some friendship/loyalty proxy then we can all calmly compare, and benefit from combined experience. Bearing in mind all research is biased just extract the information you need and ignore the rest.