FN .264 LICC SHOT Show 2023

[LRRPF52]

FN’s Individual Weapon System in .264 USA/LICC



Development of the ammunition and weapon has been an iterative process and three variants will be delivered: an 11.5” Close Quarters Battle carbine, a 14.5” Carbine, and a 18.5” ‘Recce’ (Designated Marksmanship Rifle). FN America say these variants weight 7 and 9 pounds, empty depending on configuration.

The 2019 BAA gives some further details on the IWS variants, and noted that it wanted operators to be able to change configurations by swapping out the upper receiver. Here are the weight requirements for the various configurations, according to the BAA:

CQB Carbine: weight 6.5-7lbs.

Carbine: weight 7-8lbs.

Recce Rifle: weight 8-9lbs.

The weapon is fully ambidextrous, has a self regulating gas block, a non-reciprocating charging handle, a two stage trigger, a self contained operating group, a monolithic upper, a full length top rail and an MLOK forend, a folding stock and several built-in recoil mitigation mechanisms. Details on these mechanisms haven’t been disclosed yet. Interestingly, throughout its description of the desired weapon characteristics the BAA uses the Colt Canada C8 SFW as a reference point for overall length, and felt recoil, also noting that “reliability, durability and safety of the LICC IWS shall be equal to or better than the Colt Canada C8 SFW with 14.5 inch barrel”.

[biodsl]

I like it, which is something I never said about the XM5, or XM7, or whatever they're calling it these days.

[LRRPF52]

I looked at NGSW numbers for the 6.8x51 run at 80,000psi, then extrapolated what various 6.5mm projectiles would do from this .264 LICC.

Looks like you could hit 6.5x47 22”-24” velocities from a 13” barrel.

They didn’t need to go with such a large receiver set though, if you look at the POF Revolution/Rogue and Ruger SFAR.

Should be an AR-15 frame with larger mag well that pushed back the FCG a few fractions of an inch, to make way for the 2.500” COL this appears to have.

I scaled the photo 1:1 and measured with my calipers to get some dimensions.

This would make a great replacement for 7.62 NATO in Semi Auto Sniper Systems, DMRs, and LMGs.

The rest of the duty positions in an Infantry Company would benefit from a PDW that matches or exceeds 5.56x45, from a smaller cartridge like the 6x35 PDW from KAC/Hornady.

This is a better direction than 6.8x51 NGSW though, and seems to be answering an operational need for a joint US and Canadian SOF request.

These magazines are the width and height of 25rd 7.62 PMAGs, but have shorter length (COL reference), which makes them a little easier to fit on your equipment than 7.62x51 or 6.8x51 mags.

I don’t like the width though, since it is based on a .473” case head/rim diameter. I’ve heard that FN increased the cartridge diameter from the .264 USA, which was based on Carcano/Grendel, to get more propellant volume inside the case to meet the velocities they were looking for.

This configuration is what should have been a thing in 1955, instead of the T65/7.62 NATO albatross.

[BluntForceTrauma]

Dang! How did I manage to miss this at SHOT? This kind of thing is what we've all been talking about here for lo these 19 long years.

This is exciting and would be a complete vindication of the whole 6.5 Grendel sleek bullet/compact case philosophy — not to mention something actually and truly useful for our troops: Let them be able to carry lots of rounds of a high-performance cartridge in compact weapons. Boom! Done.

The innovation is NOT FN's weapon — anyone can make an AR variant. The innovation is the cartridge. I'd be willing to — as a compromise for the greater good — let them pry the 6.5 Grendel from my cold, dead hands if our troops got something like a 6.5mm x 43 (1.70") with a .473 case head and a 2.5" OAL.

P.S. Helpful hint: Make it a three-lug bolthead. You're welcome.

UPDATE: Went and read the article. Thanks LR52! These guys are already way ahead of me. Says the cartridge IS 6.5 x 43. Says they ARE using a three-lug bolt. Thank God there are some smart dudes left in our military, cuz whoever specified the whole 6.8x51 non-starter ain't them.

P.P.S. Another helpful hint: Make the standard projectile a 6.5mm 115gr.

[Fess]

I can't remember where I read it, but the use of the .473" case instead of Carcano/Grendel was to reduce the COAL of the cartridge to allow a shorter receiver than an AR10. Their testing showed that shooters were very sensitive to receiver length.
I suspect that the piston action had mainly to do with keeping propellant gasses farther away from the shooter's face when using a suppressor. FN makes DI rifles, so it is notable that they developed a piston for this one. All the NGSW submissions were piston designs too, FWIW.

[Jimla]

Wonder how close it is to Grendel, the spec goals was 2650 fps(T) to 2750 fps(O) with a 108gr bullet in 11.5" barrel. Not sure what (T) and (O) mean.

Any one have typical velocity for a 11.5" barrel with 108gr bullet with a Grendel?

[Fess]

I think that the 2650fps is the Threshold (minimum) velocity whereas the 2750fps is the Optimal.

[LRRPF52]

Wonder how close it is to Grendel, the spec goals was 2650 fps(T) to 2750 fps(O) with a 108gr bullet in 11.5" barrel. Not sure what (T) and (O) mean.

Any one have typical velocity for a 11.5" barrel with 108gr bullet with a Grendel?

T is Threshold, while O is Objective. Any time you have an RFP or program performance metrics, they typically give Threshold and Objective requirements.

SCHV was at least 3300-3400fps, but they also specified effective range and steel helmet perforation requirements at different distances.

In production, M193 from 20” barreled AR-15s/M16s ended up being 3150-3250fps avg.

The original Objective velocities they were talking about for NGSW were in the 3400fps region, but then those kept walking back down to 3200, then 3100, then 3000, and looks like the actual high pressure 135gr round is doing 2900fps from a 13” barrel, which is still screaming fast for that projectile weight/barrel length. Roy Weatherby would be aroused.

From my 12” Grendel, factory 90gr Federal TNT is doing 2700fps, while 120gr OTM is doing 2400fps.

I haven’t chrono’d the 110gr PPU, but I think it’s doing at least 2500fps based on how much higher it impacts than any 123gr for me out at distance. I was surprised at how flat it shoots even from the 12” pistol.

My drop with it at 780-900yds was a lot less than 123gr ELD-M.

There’s something to be said for the short propellant column and 30deg shoulder in 6.5 Grendel, even operating at such low chamber pressures.

It does way more work than you think it should.

[lazyengineer]

One of the more exciting developments I've seen in quite some time. From what I can tell, they went with a more sane 62,000 psi rating, rather than Sig's absurd 80,000 PSI spec which was just asking for (and having) problems. Nobody seems to actually care or know about this gun and round, which is a shame, because to me, this is the one. Dump your .308's - this is the round of the future for that role - and then some.

As much as I like Grendel - this round and platform looks very exciting to me.

[LR1955]

One of the more exciting developments I've seen in quite some time. From what I can tell, they went with a more sane 62,000 psi rating, rather than Sig's absurd 80,000 PSI spec which was just asking for (and having) problems. Nobody seems to actually care or know about this gun and round, which is a shame, because to me, this is the one. Dump your .308's - this is the round of the future for that role - and then some.

As much as I like Grendel - this round and platform looks very exciting to me.

LE:

The .308 has been obsolete for decades for competitive purposes outside of Palma where it is still required. However, for the military it served its purpose.

Take my word for it, the guy shooting the rifle and humping the ammo probably doesn't care too much about the specifics of either outside of how much they weigh and how reliable they are.

LR-55

[JASmith]

LE:

The .308 has been obsolete for decades for competitive purposes outside of Palma where it is still required. However, for the military it served its purpose.

Take my word for it, the guy shooting the rifle and humping the ammo probably doesn't care too much about the specifics of either outside of how much they weigh and how reliable they are.

LR-55

Excellent insight and advice for those of us dreaming about alternative cartridges and systems.

Main remaining questions deal with how far out the average grunt needs to be able to hit and knock down a bad guy wearing projected standard body armor.

[LR1955]

Excellent insight and advice for those of us dreaming about alternative cartridges and systems.

Main remaining questions deal with how far out the average grunt needs to be able to hit and knock down a bad guy wearing projected standard body armor.

JS:

The limiting factor is always how far away can a Rifleman see an enemy. Am sure it will give a huge advantage at very long ranges over the 7.62 NATO cartridge though. Problem will be seeing the enemy.

I still contend that 300 meters is about it from ground level. After that, terrain and vegetation really play a factor.

LR-55

[JASmith]

JS:

The limiting factor is always how far away can a Rifleman see an enemy. Am sure it will give a huge advantage at very long ranges over the 7.62 NATO cartridge though. Problem will be seeing the enemy.

I still contend that 300 meters is about it from ground level. After that, terrain and vegetation really play a factor.

LR-55

One would guess the 300 meters applies to standing and walking personnel. (meaning troops on the offense)

How much closer would the same reasoning set the distance for troops in defensive positions?

[LR1955]

One would guess the 300 meters applies to standing and walking personnel. (meaning troops on the offense)

How much closer would the same reasoning set the distance for troops in defensive positions?

JS:

If in a decent defensive position, they will have a lot of cover and concealment so the attacker would probably have to be very, very, close. Under a hundred meters minimum and thats if the enemy has a poorly made defensive system.

Built up areas are particularly nasty too since the amount of cover and concealment is monumental.

This cartridge will have one advantage over the 5.56 or a Grendel. Its velocity. If the bullet is made well, it will penetrate a lot more.

LR-55

[JASmith]

Thanks for the excellent summary!

[LRRPF52]

This is basically a 6.5 Creedmoor short with higher pressure case, but we haven’t seen definitive performance characteristics.

If it was pressured like NGSW, then you could see pretty insane velocities from a short barrel, but we just don’t know.

I’m not a fan of a .473” case head diameter for general issue to Joe because of the magazine volume and necessary space taken on the soldier’s load.

The magazines get really fat, and we already know what it’s like to try to carry a basic load of SR-25 thickness mags.

There have been numerous incidents over the past 30 years where US dismounted forces have run empty on ammo in extended firefights, including in Mogadishu.

Tom Satterly talks about picking up dropped magazines from guys who had 3 rounds left in them that did tac reloads under fire, just so he could have something to shoot.

Paul Howe talks about stripping the wounded and dead for their mags (his team was across the street from Tom Satterly) at the intersection of one of the crash sites.

Guys I know almost ran black in OIF, as well as in Afghanistan, on teams that had several SR-25s in their weapons mix.

The reality is that US soldiers will inevitably be set up for failure by National, Theater, Division or Combatant Command, local, and sub-unit level leadership at some time in their careers or enlistments.

This is why I see these newer, high performance cartridges as good replacements for 7.62 NATO, not 5.56 NATO.

If we can get a higher round count per weight/volume overall into the force mix, then I’m all for it.

Once we move away from higher round count in favor of uber performance for most of the duty positions, we will see soldiers set up for failure like with the M-14/7.62 all over again.