Another FTF post
#1
I bought a complete upper with an 18" match grade(lapped and air gauged)barrel with RLGS, and "Fat Comp".
It looks and feels very good. It came clean and lubed. I won't mention the vendor just yet as they have been very attentive. I did a shoot one clean one , then shoot two, clean,,,the two rounds were almost touching so I shot three rds to a .8" grp at 60yds, which is where I normally zero. That gives me the flattest trajectory for the way I shoot, which is at night with a thermal scope. Seldom over 200 yds. I was using Hornady 123 SST's initially. I had a bushnell AR type scope on it, which has been good on the 5.56 upper. I then did a light swipe of the bore with a snake, and shot 3 ELD-M Black's to another .8 grp almost identical to the sst's. I noticed that the bolt did not lock back on last round, but figured maybe it would get better with use, cleaning, and lube,,,It hasn't. Then a few rounds later I got the first FTF,,, figured maybe it would get better with use, cleaning, and lube,,,It hasn't. On the first day the temp was warm, since then we have had cooler weather, and the FTF's are much worse. On both of the last outings, it failed both times to load the second(follow up) round. I haven't done an accurate check on the ejection pattern, but I'm sure it is around 5 o'clock. I do my bench shootin from inside my shop, and the cases bounce off the wall beside me. I'm so involved in the shooting, I haven't actually watched to see the angle of the ejection. I am using a new C-products 10 round mag. I've had it apart, it's clean and smooth, and felt like it "might" have had a dry lube film on the inside. I cleaned it, and worked the follower up and down with dowel, and it is smooth, doesn't tilt, or bind anywhere. Even so, I ordered a 10 round E-Lander. Needed another mag anyway. It's on the way.
I talked to the vendor, and he had some sensible suggestions to try, and said no matter what, they would take care of the problem. He suggested to wait and see if the new mag makes a difference. I checked the buffer, it's in the old DPMS oracle lower, and it weighs 2.973oz. tube and spring are clean. The gas block had a bit of carbon around the tube next to the block. Not much, but it only has about 35 or 40 rounds through it. Port alignment looks ok, and the port is .093(3/32"). I took the bolt apart, no sign of gas leakage around the key, and all else looks good. It seems to me to be a classic "under gassed" scenario, but I'm no expert. The FTF is not a "bolt OVER base", the bolt is behind the case with the nose pointed up over the barrel extension.
I almost took out a #41 (.096) drill and opened up the port a little. I don't really need an adjustable block, as I don't experiment with a lot of different loads, and I can't afford a suppressor. Once I find a load that works well for me, I generally stick with it. Sorry to get so long winded, but I wanted get all the info in the post. I probably still left out something. I'm hoping this works out well, the folks I bought it from are really nice, and are trying to make it right. For now I have a really good shooting single shot Smile
I appreciate all the guys on this site, and their willingness to share their knowledge and experience with others. Any and all help appreciated. Thank you, Gary
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#2
If it is a Ballistic Advantage they have a reputation for being under gassed, just guessing as that is a known port size for their 18". Even Lilja uses a slightly larger (.094") port with 20" rifle length gas. In Florida BA might be able to get away with that year round.
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#3
Thanks for the reply. I don't know who makes this barrel, the vendor describes it as "hand lapped, air guaged, match grade".
It IS a shooter. My thought is to drill out the port to .096, and then install a adjustable block,,if need be. This rig shoots so soft, it's like shooting a 10-22. Another reason it seems under gassed to me. I guess I'll wait on the new mag before doing anything that can't be reversed. Thought about "messing" with different buffer springs, but I don't fully understand that system. Thanks again. Any more ideas, please let me know. I need this gun working, shot 3 pigs, and more coming. Smile
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#4
Or just get a suppressor Smile
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#5
" I don't experiment with a lot of different loads, and I can't afford a suppressor."

Somehow, I don't think he is going to "just get a suppressor" to solve a cycling issue...Big Grin
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#6
Added info: I noticed as I was cycling the action by hand, as the bolt moves back over the top round in the mag, when it reaches the base of the cartridge the lug on the bolt "bumps" the rim and causes the front of the cartridge to raise up a little bit, but after the the lug moves off the rim, the cartridge settles back to it's previous position, which is level in the mag. I think this is normal, I see the same thing in my 5.56 setup. Is it normal?
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#7
FWIW I'm running a 18" RLGS with a 0.094" port. It seems to run well down to 0*F, I have not shot it colder than that.
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#8
Thanks Jake, I would think the .093 on mine would be fine, but the symptoms seem to point to being under gassed. That is to a Grendel novice like myself. I'm hoping the new mag solves the problem, (if it EVER gets here) but I can't see that there is anything wrong with the new one I have, and there are knowledgeable folk on this site that use the C-Products mag with no problems. Thanks again for the info.
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#9
If you have a 5.56 Magpul laying around they work fine as 4-5 round magazines, more than that they distort and cause problems.
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#10
Thanks FRB, I didn't have a magpul, but I plugged an AR Stoner in and pulled the charge handle, and it spit two rounds up. Not sure what that means. Hoping the E-Lander will be here tomorrow or Tuesday. Thanks again for the info.
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#11
Problem solved. I was beginning to regret going with the 6.5 Grendel. There didn't seem to be a solution to the problem. The folks at Sanders armory worked with me to get it fixed. Their customer service is top shelf. The solution was to remove the really nice brake/comp. I have spent hours and hours searching every post related to the problem, and never saw anything about the muzzle device causing this type of problem. The comp works great to control muzzle rise and recoil. The rifle felt like shooting a semi auto .22 lr. The theory is that the comp was actually robbing gas pressure from the action. I'm not sure, but I think the short distance from the gas port to the muzzle played a part. I was ready to drill out the port and use an adjustable block, but he(sanders) insisted that it should be working as is. They have sold this setup before, and they worked. All I know is that before, it was barely spitting the brass 3 or 4 feet to the 5 o'clock angle, wouldn't lock back on last round, and was getting FTF frequently(continuously in colder temps). I had bought a CPD 10 rd mag, and read of some problems with them, so I bought an E-Lander 10 rd. No change, in fact I like the CPD better. I had to "smooth out" some places on the E-Lander where it was scratching up the brass, and was very hard to push rounds out with my fingers. (old fingers).
I had done every check and trick I could find on the web, to no avail. Removed the comp,and VOILA.
Locks back on last round, brass is landing in a nice pile 10 ft away between 3 and 4 o'clock. POI changed a tad, had to re zero the thermal scope, and haven't shot any "groups" yet, but it tracked perfectly while zeroing the scope. I am only using a thread protector for now, but will install a new bird cage when it gets here.
I AM MUCH HAPPIER. Gary
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#12
Wow that's weird. Know some brakes such as Krink types are made to create more pressure/dwell, first I've heard of one causing loss. Mind sharing what the brake was?
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#13
FRB6.5 Wrote:Wow that's weird. Know some brakes such as Krink types are made to create more pressure/dwell, first I've heard of one causing loss. Mind sharing what the brake was?

And maybe a picture too, I am very interested in this.
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#14
I beleive it is a model they(SandersArmory) have made to their specs.

https://sandersarmoryusa.com/product/ar1...zle-brake/

Really a nice looking, and effective brake. Still don't know how/why it does what it does. Maybe the barrel crown, or concentricity of the bore has something to do with it since it doesn't occur on all of the same setups.? I don't have all the tools for reloading yet, but soon will. As mentioned in my OP, it was shooting several combinations of ammo into sub moa 3 shot groups, and 3 DRT hogs, plus one more that only ran about 30 yds. Smile
I'll post the progress as I get to shoot it more.
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#15
gwtx Wrote:Problem solved. .... The solution was to remove the really nice brake/comp. I have spent hours and hours searching every post related to the problem, and never saw anything about the muzzle device causing this type of problem. The comp works great to control muzzle rise and recoil. The rifle felt like shooting a semi auto .22 lr. The theory is that the comp was actually robbing gas pressure from the action. I'm not sure, but I think the short distance from the gas port to the muzzle played a part. I was ready to drill out the port and use an adjustable block, but he(sanders) insisted that it should be working as is. ...... Removed the comp,and VOILA.
Locks back on last round, brass is landing in a nice pile 10 ft away between 3 and 4 o'clock. POI changed a tad, had to re zero the thermal scope, and haven't shot any "groups" yet, but it tracked perfectly while zeroing the scope. I am only using a thread protector for now, but will install a new bird cage when it gets here.
I AM MUCH HAPPIER. Gary

I have to say this doesn't make any sense to me. The gas pressure loss due to a muzzle break is going to be less than the gas pressure loss of an open-ended BBL or flash-hider. The muzzle break does yank the gun forward though, which I suppose could be affecting the bolt cycle in some way, but I've never really heard of that being an issue with AR cycling reliability before.

This could be a case of parts needing to wear in, more than anything - and I suspect the muzzle break removal "fix" is more coincidental in timing of the parts wearing in, than the actual problem. It sounds like there's only about 20 rounds or so though the gun, if I read your OP right (it was kinda wall'o text there!) Go ahead and run about 200 rounds through that gun, and I bet when you put that brake back on, it'll cycle just fine.
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#16
I'm with LE on this, but I think it's harmonics, just semi educated guessing though.

No reason the comp should be sucking pressure out of the bbl. I've NEVER heard or read about anything like that before...

Just checked outside,,not snowing.

I'm happy for you that it's shooting for you now, regardless the reason.
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