Ahh... I think we need to get marijuana legalized.

[stanc]

First it seems you think of Government as some separate entity. You are the government and so is everyone else of this country.

That's a fiction which can easily be disproven. Try climbing this fence, then tell the guys with guns who come out to arrest you that it's okay for you to be there because you are the government:

Now lets look at Rights as define in the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They specify these 3 in this order as they encompass all Rights...

Wrong. It says "among these" rights are the rights to Life, etc.

It's a lot of baloney, anyway. The definition of an "unalienable right" is something which cannot be taken away, and clearly the government has taken Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness from any number of people.

The only "rights" you have are those which you have the power to keep and enforce. All other "rights" are in reality government-granted privileges that can be restricted or revoked.

[LR1955]

Guys:

Second time.

Keep it on subject.

LR55

[BMWRider]

First it seems you think of Government as some separate entity. You are the government and so is everyone else of this country. "government of the people, by the people, for the people" Our form of government is an conglomerate made up of the people it represents. Therefore, everything the government owns you own in part, everything the government does you have a level of responsibility for the action. This is true for your federal and your state government.

That may have been true at some point in our nation's history but it is no more. We are ruled by an oligarchy that has created so many laws that the average citizen commits felonies every single day. Today the average American and 749,999 of his or her fellow citizens is represented in Congress by ONE individual. George Washington during the writing of the Constitution felt that a ratio of 30,000:1 was untenable and asked that it be changed to 20,000:1. Today the only way you have a voice in government is to "donate" to a politician's campaign fund. Unless you have a lot of wealth, you and I are not heard. I have watched people lose their homes to protect wild life without due process, I have seen people fined hundreds of thousands of dollars for building ponds in their backyards. The days of government being answerable to the people is long gone.

On an individual level I have never had a representative who spoke for me, ever in my 54 years. What we are led to believe is that if 50% + 1 person elect a representative, we are all represented. Not true. I don't believe in most of what our government does at a national, state or local level. Most of what I see are a bunch of busybodies trying to meddle into the lives of people. Hence a group of busybodies says something like "no one needs to own a high powered rifle" and you get what we are seeing in California, Connecticut, and other states across the nation. Or we get a group of people in Washington, DC who believe southerners are backwards, mouth breathing racists and they design an immigration policy that turns conservative states into states that support leftist social policies. We are seeing it in Virginia and it will be coming to you soon.

Now lets look at Rights as define in the Declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

They specify these 3 in this order as they encompass all Rights and your Rights fall into this order of precedence. Furthermore you must understand that property rights fall within your Right to Life. Thus your Property (Life) Rights supersede my Right to Liberty. I cannot use your property without your consent and it is within your rights to regulate how that property is to be used.

Actually in my opinion you are misreading John Locke. Locke believed the right to property was the ultimate right and since you as an individual owned yourself, your right to life and liberty were an extension of your rights of property. If all Americans respected the individual right to property and did not aggress against their fellow man we would have the republic envisioned by the founders. But again, we have a contingent of folks who like to meddle.

This is why the people who own the public roads have the right to regulate through a licensing system and revoke your license if they so choice. Fortunately we don't allow this to be an arbitrary process because of certain legislation.

Now there is not justification for the government regulating your right to Bear Arms. The Constitution was Amended before ratification of the states to prevent such a thing.

The idea of licensing and controlling roads is very modern. Many states did not require plates, registration or licenses prior to WWII. Just as Americans allowed oligarchs to turn a right to travel freely and be secure in their property into a privilege for the sake of safety, so to are your rights to keep and bear arms becoming a privilege. You may want to argue with me, but with 20,000 gun laws in this nation, I think the evidence is on my side.

Yes sir words do have meaning and the order in which you present them have meaning as well.

Negative, you are projecting your feelings onto me, but you cannot know where I stand when it comes to individual liberty or how I feel. I stated a fact, your shuffling of what I stated does not change what I meant.

I do appreciate your opinions and I think in many ways we are vehemently agreeing, but where we separate is on government. I will never agree that government represents me, because it doesn't. Nor do I believe that men 230 years ago could sign a contract that binds me.

[BMWRider]

Second time.

Keep it on subject.

Perhaps I am off of the mark here and if so tell me, please. I am arguing that a fundamental understanding of the role of government is vital in understanding the premise of the original post. When the national government projects itself into the regulation and control of a weed in violation of the Tenth Amendment and then violates the Second Amendment in restricting the rights of lawful citizens there is a fundamental breakdown in the system. Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution contains a very specific list of powers the states granted the national government. Nowhere on that list does it include the regulation of a plant. So while I may seem off topic that is not my intent. I apologize if I am not articulating my position well.

[stanc]

Guys:

Second time.

Keep it on subject.

Gene, you're such a party pooper.

Okay, back to Drift's ideas:

I think we need to get marijuana legalized.

I submit to the Horde that we need to support 2nd Amendment liberties for all..Even the pot heads have Constitutional rights...and we should support them.

In what way(s) would you support them?

When I see another group making political headway while ours/mine is loosing so much ground, I look at that group and try and see what I/we can learn from them.

What lesson(s) can we learn from them?

After all, if gun owners are so much smarter than the pot heads, why are they succeeding while we are failing?

Well, one thing is that they have an issue with emotional appeal: Compassionate concern for people suffering from illness.

I'm not seeing an obvious applicability to the RKBA issue.

I am saying that if we frame the argument for our 2nd Amendments Rights as akin to to their pot rights..then we deserve at least as much consideration at the ballot box as they do.

AFAIK, we have as much access to getting initiatives placed on the ballot as they do. We "deserve" to have considered at the ballot box only the issues for which we can get the required public support.

[LR1955]

Thanks Stan.

Back on topic again!

A first for this forum.

LR55

[LRRPF52]

We should make an advanced hemp fiber AR15 furniture set....for freedom.

[dammitman]

wanna make a bazillion dollars? find a way to tell whether or not one has used marijuana in last few hours. the problem with legalizing marijuana is no good way to test for its use.

[LR1955]

How does developing a means of detecting THC have anything to do with the thread?

If you want to learn something from the pro dope crowd it is to spend thirty years telling the public that dope is safer than booze and doesn't hurt anyone.

Add in thirty plus years of teachers teaching that guns are bad and the 2A actually means the National Guard and not the citizen.

Now you see why dope is legal and guns are heading towards being illegal.

This one has gone on long enough.

LR55