Could the Grendel be used a lightweight sniper rifle?

[usmcm16a2]

Folks,


I was thinking, while working with my Howa heavy barrel. It has a Bell and Carlson stock, the Oregon Gunsmithing bottom metal, and a Mark AR 4x12x44 scope. With all this it is extremely lightweight, and compact.
I use a 110gr Lehigh Defense .264, traveling at 2550 FPS. Which at 600 yards is still carries around 625ft/lbs of energy. Between the inherent accuracy of the Grendel, the lightweight nature of the Grendel bolt action platform. I wonder if the idea has ever been floated for a mid range sniper rifle. A2

[JASmith]

The short answer is Yes!

Have you looked at the already existing threads discussing the Grendel as a military round? In particular look at discussions of its potential a a round for the designated marksman.

[FLshooter]

I have seen vids of guys taking out large elk @ 400+ yards w/a 6.5 Grendel.Humans are much more fragile.I think the 6.5 Grendel would make a great sniper rifle out to 800 yards!
Look at the ballistics of a 168g SMK shot from a .308 and a 123g ELD 6.5 Grendel.Pretty darn close out to 800 yrds!

[A5BLASTER]

That's the primary role of my CZ grendel.

I set it up to be my sniping rifle should we come too that.

[Klem]

Absolutely no chance in a bolt gun. For the same weight and size you can chamber a larger calibre which goes faster, flies flatter, bucks the wind better and has more impact on the target. For example, 308 or Creedmore - which is already appreciated and deployed.

In an auto-loader as a primary (only) weapon which can also perform CQB, maybe. The current Recon Rifle configuration is for a compact AR in 223 Wylde with an accurized barrel and scope; for short-medium carefully aimed shots. Lilja's 'M4 Navy' profile barrels are a prime example. That could easily be a Grendel configuration, providing the teams were comfortable with the Grendel's magazine/feeding reliability and were prepared to forgo the opportunity to share ammo in a prolonged firefight.

[BluntForceTrauma]

The Air Force actually has a sort of SOCOM unit, and back when Bill Alexander was around, somehow a Grendel made its way to Afghanistan where it was effective in a 1200-yard sniper shot.... But that's probably just rumor.

Anyway, a modern hybrid 6.5mm 120gr hybrid could have a G1 BC of 0.595 at 2510 fps in a 20" barrel, which would make it quite competitive relative to military 7.62x51 M118LR with a 7.62 175gr BC 0.496 at 2600 fps in a 24" barrel.

A Grendel, of course, is not competitive against the larger 6.5 Creedmoor, which elements of SOCOM have — wisely — adopted.

[Sinclair]

That's the primary role of my CZ grendel.

I set it up to be my sniping rifle should we come too that.

- Political Comments Removed -

PS: BFT, I heard the same story, probably no way to prove or deny. Things like that happened all the time during the Cold War, but there was never any documentation! They didn't call then spooks for no reason.

[OneHitWonder]

I have no experience with bolt guns. I’m a gas gun semi-auto shooter. The 6 ARC is being tested as a DMR for 600+ yard use. The concept did not take the 6.5 Grendel into consideration because the recoil takes the shooter off target. I have found out that is true in my Grendel with a 4x14 scope. The 6 ARC is less recoil and supposedly you can stay on target through the scope for fast follow up shots.

[LRRPF52]

6.5 Grendel AR15s make more sense than the larger 7.62 NATO Semi Auto Sniper Systems for a number of reasons, as long as we account for unique ammunition sourcing.

Several units within the SOF and Sniping communities have experimented with 6.5 Grendel since it was introduced on a more informal basis, and this is where I actually first heard about the cartridge in 2004.

A buddy of mine who was a senior instructor at SOTIC and SFARTAETC had one of the early AA 24" 6.5 Grendel rifles, and was very fond of the cartridge/rifle combo.

USMC Scout Sniper Instructors I've spoken with at certain training events basically mirrored all the points I've made over the years, so it was like listening to myself without having to add anything from people I had never met prior. The big things that stood out from a school house perspective were round count and ease of students being able to spot their own hits due to low recoil, and sufficient terminal energy at distance.

There are anecdotal reports of NAVSOF elements using 14.5" 6.5 Grendels in Afghanistan I have not discussed openly for the past decade or so. They had no problems making hits out to 900m, which isn't surprising since Eastern Afghanistan doesn't have many elevations lower than 6200ft ASL.

That's a nice capability to have with something no larger than an M4 that you can fight and clear rooms with, then reach out into 7.62 NATO M118LR territory without any of the weight, recoil, bulk, and limited ammunition carrying penalties of the 7.62 NATO cartridge and rifle profiles.

So not only can the 6.5 Grendel perform in that role, I have accounts of it already having done so in at least 2 Sniper Training schools, as well as downrange.

This is one of the main roles that I saw as making a lot of sense dating back sometime, with multiple threads on it in this sub section of the forum.

As soon as I saw what 6.5 Grendel would do from a 16" barrel, I saw no instance in any of the Scout Sniper units I was in where we would have been better served with the 7.62 NATO, other than having an existing cartridge that shared commonality with the rest of the Army. We always shot M118 or M852 through our Sniper Systems before M118LR came into being, so we already had our own unique DODIC sourcing for sniping ammunition.

Especially within the SOF community, there has been a steady flow of unique sniping cartridges not only for the 7.62 NATO, but 5.56 NATO, .300 Win Mag, and .50 BMG as well, often with multiple samples in each chambering.

In every training setting, deployments I have been on, and missions or campaigns I have analyzed where Sniper Systems were critical towards the outcome, I'm not seeing any benefit to the 7.62 NATO systems over 6.5 Grendel. There have been multiple incidents where Snipers in Ranger Regiment, USASOC, and USMC have either run black or came really close to running black on ammo.

Several guys I trained or know personally ended up carrying 2 rifles on deployment in some cases, where they were assigned National Match M14s in Ramadi. Hit probability with a shorter 6.5 Grendel is as good or better than 18-20" SR25s, while still being able to fight with the Grendel carbine the same way you would with an M4 in CQB, with a higher round count on the soldier's load and in the weapon, at a lighter overall weight.

The 6mm AR/6mm ARC makes a lot of sense in this regard as well because you get even better hit probability, less recoil, and ballistics that demonstrably exceed the 7.62 NATO even shooting more modern target bullets. This is what drove the decision-making into whatever DoD entity asked Hornady and certain rifle manufacturers to build them the 18" suppressed 6mm ARC DM rifles.

[jonny rotton]

is the 6mm arc significantly better than the 6.5 grendel in a sniping role??

[Sinclair]

[quote=Sinclair]- Political Comments Removed -

Sorry about that, I will do better once they get my new meds better regulated.

[LR1955]

is the 6mm arc significantly better than the 6.5 grendel in a sniping role??

Exterior ballistics of my 6 AR is a quantum improvement over any Grendel load. So, hit probabilities would be significantly better.

How much more lethal? Depends on the bullet design. And that will influence external ballistics.

I will say this much, a 6mm anything will burn through barrels much faster than larger diameter rounds until you get to the big magnums.

So, you guys getting high speed 6 ARC barrels are advised to buy two initially and one a year there after. You will be amazed at how fast the throat disappears with one.

LR55

[JASmith]

Another reason for taking a closer look at the ARC is the fundamental difference in commercially available bullets between 6mm and 6.5mm.

The ARC does have an edge ovqer the Grendel for sniping.

Sniping, competition target, and long range shooting is one thing. Hunting is quite another.

We see bullets ranging from 55 gr to 115 gr in 6mm. while the 6.5 range is from 90 grains through 160 grains.

This means the 6mm is excellent for varmints through deer as is the 243 Winchester. In spite of lower velocities, it might be a bit better for the larger deer because heavy bullets are better stabilized as a result of the much tighter twist for the ARC.

The 90 gr bullets or the Grendel make varminting a little less fun because that weight of bullet is overkill for most varmints. That is offset because the Grendel is capable of ethically harvesting the heaviest deer and larger animals.

Which one to choose? The answer is both!

[lazyengineer]

6.5 Grendel AR15s make more sense than the larger 7.62 NATO Semi Auto Sniper Systems for a number of reasons, as long as we account for unique ammunition sourcing.

Several units within the SOF and Sniping communities have experimented with 6.5 Grendel since it was introduced on a more informal basis, and this is where I actually first heard about the cartridge in 2004.

A buddy of mine who was a senior instructor at SOTIC and SFARTAETC had one of the early AA 24" 6.5 Grendel rifles, and was very fond of the cartridge/rifle combo.

USMC Scout Sniper Instructors I've spoken with at certain training events basically mirrored all the points I've made over the years, so it was like listening to myself without having to add anything from people I had never met prior. The big things that stood out from a school house perspective were round count and ease of students being able to spot their own hits due to low recoil, and sufficient terminal energy at distance.

There are anecdotal reports of NAVSOF elements using 14.5" 6.5 Grendels in Afghanistan I have not discussed openly for the past decade or so. They had no problems making hits out to 900m, which isn't surprising since Eastern Afghanistan doesn't have many elevations lower than 6200ft ASL.

That's a nice capability to have with something no larger than an M4 that you can fight and clear rooms with, then reach out into 7.62 NATO M118LR territory without any of the weight, recoil, bulk, and limited ammunition carrying penalties of the 7.62 NATO cartridge and rifle profiles.

So not only can the 6.5 Grendel perform in that role, I have accounts of it already having done so in at least 2 Sniper Training schools, as well as downrange.

This is one of the main roles that I saw as making a lot of sense dating back sometime, with multiple threads on it in this sub section of the forum.

As soon as I saw what 6.5 Grendel would do from a 16" barrel, I saw no instance in any of the Scout Sniper units I was in where we would have been better served with the 7.62 NATO, other than having an existing cartridge that shared commonality with the rest of the Army. We always shot M118 or M852 through our Sniper Systems before M118LR came into being, so we already had our own unique DODIC sourcing for sniping ammunition.

Especially within the SOF community, there has been a steady flow of unique sniping cartridges not only for the 7.62 NATO, but 5.56 NATO, .300 Win Mag, and .50 BMG as well, often with multiple samples in each chambering.

In every training setting, deployments I have been on, and missions or campaigns I have analyzed where Sniper Systems were critical towards the outcome, I'm not seeing any benefit to the 7.62 NATO systems over 6.5 Grendel. There have been multiple incidents where Snipers in Ranger Regiment, USASOC, and USMC have either run black or came really close to running black on ammo.

Several guys I trained or know personally ended up carrying 2 rifles on deployment in some cases, where they were assigned National Match M14s in Ramadi. Hit probability with a shorter 6.5 Grendel is as good or better than 18-20" SR25s, while still being able to fight with the Grendel carbine the same way you would with an M4 in CQB, with a higher round count on the soldier's load and in the weapon, at a lighter overall weight.

The 6mm AR/6mm ARC makes a lot of sense in this regard as well because you get even better hit probability, less recoil, and ballistics that demonstrably exceed the 7.62 NATO even shooting more modern target bullets. This is what drove the decision-making into whatever DoD entity asked Hornady and certain rifle manufacturers to build them the 18" suppressed 6mm ARC DM rifles.

This is fantastic stuff - thank you so much for writing this! This, combined with your other comment on barrel life, is exactly why I love the 6.5 Grendel so much. It fights like a 7.62x39 in an M4 at close range, and hits like a .308 would at long range, in a package the size of an M4. And it's not a barrel burner. To me, it's the ultimate general purpose round and system. I'm less interested in the new 6mm ARC; if I wanted paper-targets match round that is 6mm PPC, i would have gotten 6mm PPC.

[J_Von_Random]

This is fantastic stuff - thank you so much for writing this! This, combined with your other comment on barrel life, is exactly why I love the 6.5 Grendel so much. It fights like a 7.62x39 in an M4 at close range, and hits like a .308 would at long range, in a package the size of an M4. And it's not a barrel burner. To me, it's the ultimate general purpose round and system. I'm less interested in the new 6mm ARC; if I wanted paper-targets match round that is 6mm PPC, i would have gotten 6mm PPC.

This is what really got me interested in the cartridge. As far as I can tell it is one hell of a jack of all trades design.

[tdbru]

For someone like me that will never be asked to go on deployment and not have to worry about weight of rounds vs number of rounds vs how much total ammo weight i can allocate etc. there are a lot of other cartridges as well that can make claim to "jack of all trades" title. i enjoy my 6.5 Grendel very much. but for out big game hunting, where round count will be one or maybe two. or even coyote calling where, due to my inept skill at calling, though i enjoy it, round count may reach 6 to 10 at most, even my 30-06 might be considered a good jack of all trades. shoots fairly flat. hits hard. lots of range capability. can handle huge variety of big (and small) game animals. ammo can be found in any corner store that carries ammo.

for high round count plinking, no, the 30-06 is not ideal. if out varmint hunting where round count is likely to be >10 to 20, then for sure the 6.5Gr. or other similar sized/powered rounds make much more sense. the 6.5Gr main design parameters were to run through an AR platform and provide more than the 223 can deliver. it succeeds very well. also is great in the mini actions for a very light to carry bolt gun for field use. it shines in use cases like DNS uses where he needs enough power/accuracy to put 100 - 200 lb. feral pigs down quickly, and quick follow up shots may be required. that fits well into the original design intent. but the only point i'm trying to make, is for me a general purpose hack rifle can be many calibers from 6.5Gr. up through 30-06 for me. 6.5 Gr. is a great compromise all around cartridge that also fits in an AR platform. in a sporter bolt gun kind of platform, there are dozens of other calibers that might make even better jack of all trades.

just some thoughts. ignore if you disagree.
-tdbru

[lazyengineer]

For someone like me that will never be asked to go on deployment and not have to worry about weight of rounds vs number of rounds vs how much total ammo weight i can allocate etc. there are a lot of other cartridges as well that can make claim to "jack of all trades" title. i enjoy my 6.5 Grendel very much. but for out big game hunting, where round count will be one or maybe two. or even coyote calling where, due to my inept skill at calling, though i enjoy it, round count may reach 6 to 10 at most, even my 30-06 might be considered a good jack of all trades. shoots fairly flat. hits hard. lots of range capability. can handle huge variety of big (and small) game animals. ammo can be found in any corner store that carries ammo.

for high round count plinking, no, the 30-06 is not ideal. if out varmint hunting where round count is likely to be >10 to 20, then for sure the 6.5Gr. or other similar sized/powered rounds make much more sense. the 6.5Gr main design parameters were to run through an AR platform and provide more than the 223 can deliver. it succeeds very well. also is great in the mini actions for a very light to carry bolt gun for field use. it shines in use cases like DNS uses where he needs enough power/accuracy to put 100 - 200 lb. feral pigs down quickly, and quick follow up shots may be required. that fits well into the original design intent. but the only point i'm trying to make, is for me a general purpose hack rifle can be many calibers from 6.5Gr. up through 30-06 for me. 6.5 Gr. is a great compromise all around cartridge that also fits in an AR platform. in a sporter bolt gun kind of platform, there are dozens of other calibers that might make even better jack of all trades.

just some thoughts. ignore if you disagree.
-tdbru

But to me, that's the whole point. Everything the 6.5 Grendel does, a different round does better... for that one particular task, that is. The appeal of 6.5 Grendel is it's the one-gun-for-everything gun. It's a gun you can put in your cabin, boat, car, closet, go snow-showing with for 5 miles, whatever. You can use that gun to take on a group of intruders, grab it and go deer hunt, shoot it out at the long long-range Gong range, take it night Hog hunting; and it's a credible round and gun-package at all of that. That's the whole point of Grendel, it's the gun for the man who isn't exactly 100% sure what he's going to be needing it for next week; but knows he's got something that can do it all. To me, it's sort of the ultimate do-all round and gun. Trying to do a 3-gun match with a 30-06, isn't the right gun, and trying to do a deer hunt with a 5.56 isn't really the right gun either, and then use it as a 500 yard sniper rifle you snow-shoe'd 5 miles to location to do it with. With one Grendel rifle, you get to do all of that; and a fairly credible job at it.

[VASCAR2]

I bought a Cz 527 bolt action in 6.5 Grendel because I already have ammo and components to reload. No further than I normally shoot the 6.5 Grendel is easy for most anyone to shoot and takes less powder than the 6.5 CM, 260, 6.5x47, 7.62/308. I really didn’t want to add the expense of another caliber. We’ll see of I can resist the 6 MM ARC.

[tdbru]

LE,
if you're talking AR platform, i agree, i think the 6.5 Gr is the best for an AR platform for a general hack. no questions asked. i guess i never thought "home intruder repellent" in with the mix. i was just thinking hunting only. i also wasn't including 3 gun matches or such like that. just hunting. and general casual plinking at targets near and far. for hiking a lot and shooting a little, like much hunting is, a light weight bolt gun in calibers bigger than the 6.5G would be more general purpose for hunting. to me. now for shoot fast and much competitions of any kind, for repelling lots of bad guys at once, no, a lightweight bolt gun isn't the better choice. the AR platform is. and in the AR platform, i think the 6.5Gr. is optimal, for personal use.

the beauty of here, for now, is that we have choices and can optimize around our individual set of parameters and ideals as it applies to us.

my attraction to the 6.5 Gr. was multi faceted. mild petite caliber, fun to plink with in terms of low recoil, not super expensive to reload in terms of amount of powder. having a 6.5x55 already i was familiar with the caliber capability like pretty high BCs for bullet weight along with good on game bullet penetration as well as having 6.5mm bullets around for reloading already. modest chamber pressure = long barrel life wrt throat erosion. with varmint bullets, good caliber for larger varmints (chucks, badgers, skunks, coyotes, etc.) and with big game bullets, adequate for deer/antelope size big game. available both in petite lightweight bolt guns as well as the AR platform. a lot to like for sure.

-tdbru