House passes school gun violence bill

[LR1955]

Yes. They should pass a psych exam. Or should I say we. I know peoples that shouldn’t have guns and my people and I have taken them away. Not because we think they will go school banging, but because they have no use for them.

Rick:

I have heard this line since the killings.

Question. What psych test would be used, how would it be administered, what would it cost, and who would make the decision on its reliability?

What would keep someone from learning the test before taking it?

Psych tests aren't cheap, aren't 'one size fits all' in terms of interpretation, and aren't good predictors of behavior.

I had to take a couple of MMPI's while in the Army and even some polygraphs for one assignment. The MMPI had to be interpreted based very specifically on my population group or it would not be accurate. So, someone had to define my population group in terms of the personality traits that the MMPI emphasized. Needless to say, my group would score much, much, differently on certain parts of an MMPI than a group of Yoga instructors.

So, such a test for an entire population of a very, very, diverse country would be almost impossible to create. And one size doesn't fit anyone when it comes to such tests. Politicians would love them because once they can deny a constitutional right based on a faulty psych test, they can deny other rights based on the same thing.

Sound, thorough, background checks do work, should be refined even more, and continue to be used.

LR55

[ricsmall]

I guess I should clarify as I was deep in the Heineken last night if you couldn’t tell by my spelling! I don’t think its feasible for every gun buyer to go thru a full psych evaluation. However, a NICS should be able to access pertinent medical info before allowing someone such as the Florida school shooter to purchase guns, because the background checks did not work on him. I do not think this is a foolproof solution, however, I do think we should all be looking at a solution to the problem rather than some people arguing about a problem with the solution.

[BjornF16]

Seems to me the tipster was correct...

LOL. Everybody who has an AR15 has the "potential" to do a mass shooting.

clearly you don't understand...

[montana]

The problem is not only prosecuting or preventing mentally defective people from obtaining firearms, "which could potentially be misused" but the potential misuse of such laws, by mentally defective law makers. Every law has a double edge which could potentially cut both ways. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hmoKPz-...xtu228bYFw
This is why we are suppose to have due process, so such laws are not abused by mentally defective law makers.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbOUPH1FeeoThe Florida shooting was a failure of enforcing such laws, yet it is the law abiding gun owner,"once again who is under attack" instead of those who dropped the ball. Fear is one of the strongest motivators used for manipulating people and is used by every side of a debate. People should always remember this when deciding a political position.

[stanc]

LOL. Everybody who has a car has the "potential" to do a mass killing.

Of course. But at the moment, legislators are addressing mass shootings.

[stanc]

I don’t think its feasible for every gun buyer to go thru a full psych evaluation. However, a NICS should be able to access pertinent medical info before allowing someone such as the Florida school shooter to purchase guns, because the background checks did not work on him. I do not think this is a foolproof solution, however, I do think we should all be looking at a solution to the problem rather than some people arguing about a problem with the solution.

At the risk of arguing about a problem with your solution :p, how do you propose that NICS access pertinent medical info?
Are you going to require that all medical professionals in the country provide continuously updated patient lists to the FBI?

[ricsmall]

At the risk of arguing about a problem with your solution :p, how do you propose that NICS access pertinent medical info?
Are you going to require that all medical professionals in the country provide continuously updated patient lists to the FBI?

With the speed of current technology, why not?

[montana]

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/fl-f...story.html
http://www.bizpacreview.com/2018/03/15/f...se-613842#

[StoneHendge]

With the speed of current technology, why not?

Crikey. The top echelons of the FBI are politicized and corrupt to the core. They can't be trusted with anything that might involve using judgement

[stanc]

The problem is not only prosecuting or preventing mentally defective people from obtaining firearms, "which could potentially be misused" but the potential misuse of such laws, by mentally defective law makers. Every law has a double edge which could potentially cut both ways.
This is why we are suppose to have due process, so such laws are not abused by mentally defective law makers.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJmFEv6BHM0

ROFL. That video proves beyond any doubt there are indeed "mentally defective" lawmakers, but you're a bit off on your other point. The legislative branch only creates laws.
The potential misuse of such laws is by mentally defective members of the executive branch, that is, those who implement and enforce laws: POTUS, police, prosecutors, etc.

[StoneHendge]

Anyone who makes over 1000 posts on a website discussing a rifle caliber that 98% of the country has never even heard of must be mentally ill. Let's go round them up and take their guns. If they can afford to hire a lawyer and prove they are mentally stable, I guess we might have to give a few back. But hey, the 9th Circuit will probably agree with us.

[montana]

ROFL. That video proves beyond any doubt there are indeed "mentally defective" lawmakers, but you're a bit off on your other point. The legislative branch only creates laws.
The potential misuse of such laws is by mentally defective members of the executive branch, that is, those who implement and enforce laws: POTUS, police, prosecutors, etc.

Very true Stan, my mistake. Many of the law makers who demonstrate incompetent firearm knowledge tend to pass legislation which can exacerbate the problem even further.

[stanc]

With the speed of current technology, why not?

I suppose it could be done with current technology, but I think it would likely be opposed by the medical profession, right-to-privacy advocates, and a whole lot of other folks.

But, something like that will be necessary if people want to switch from the traditional punishing of criminal acts, to preventing them. I wonder what the Founders would say...

[ricsmall]

I agree Stan. I don’t like the idea of it at all. There are many solutions to the problem, the first of which I think should be to make schools a hard target. As is schools by and large are a soft target.

Secondly would be reestablishing the degree of mental care in the U.S. needed to help mitigate these occurrences. Too many mental institutions have closed down in the last twenty to thirty years. In my hometown of about 1800 people, there is a guy who shot and killed a friend of my family, plead insanity and now lives next door to my moms church! WTH!?

There will never be a way to completely eliminate these tragedies, but we as a society must come up with ways to minimize them. Banning a single gun or multiple guns or even all firearms won’t do it. Criminals will have guns regardless and someone that’s mentally deranged and set on wreaking havoc will succeed if the target(s) aren’t more protected.

I could go on and on but I’ve gotta get back to the shop. Lots to do over the weekend.

[BjornF16]

Code of Federal Regulations



Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products and Firearms


Volume: 3
Date: 2017-04-01
Original Date: 2017-04-01
Title: Section § 478.11 - Meaning of terms.
Context: Title 27 - Alcohol, Tobacco Products, and Firearms. CHAPTER II - BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES, DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. SUBCHAPTER B - FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION. PART 478 - COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION. Subpart B - Definitions.


§ 478.11Meaning of terms.When used in this part and in forms prescribed under this part, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof, terms shall have the meanings ascribed in this section. Words in the plural form shall include the singular, and vice versa, and words importing the masculine gender shall include the feminine. The terms “includes” and “including” do not exclude other things not enumerated which are in the same general class or are otherwise within the scope thereof.Act. 18 U.S.C. Chapter 44.

Adjudicated as a mental defective. (a) A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:

1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or

(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.

(b) The term shall include—
(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and
(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b.


Edit:
Unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance. A person who uses a controlled substance and has lost the power of self-control with reference to the use of controlled substance; and any person who is a current user of a controlled substance in a manner other than as prescribed by a licensed physician. Such use is not limited to the use of drugs on a particular day, or within a matter of days or weeks before, but rather that the unlawful use has occurred recently enough to indicate that the individual is actively engaged in such conduct. A person may be an unlawful current user of a controlled substance even though the substance is not being used at the precise time the person seeks to acquire a firearm or receives or possesses a firearm. An inference of current use may be drawn from evidence of a recent use or possession of a controlled substance or a pattern of use or possession that reasonably covers the present time, e.g., a conviction for use or possession of a controlled substance within the past year; multiple arrests for such offenses within the past 5 years if the most recent arrest occurred within the past year; or persons found through a drug test to use a controlled substance unlawfully, provided that the test was administered within the past year. For a current or former member of the Armed Forces, an inference of current use may be drawn from recent disciplinary or other administrative action based on confirmed drug use, e.g., court-martial conviction, nonjudicial punishment, or an administrative discharge based on drug use or drug rehabilitation failure.

[BjornF16]

Congress amended the GCA in 2008 to provide that federal departments or agencies may not provide records of individuals “adjudicated as a mental defective” or “committed to a mental institution” to the Attorney General for inclusion in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) if:

(a) The adjudication or commitment was set aside or expunged, or the person was fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring;

(b) The person was found by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority to no longer suffer from the mental health condition that served as the basis of the initial adjudication or commitment, or was found to be rehabilitated; or

© The adjudication or commitment was based solely on a medical finding of disability, without any opportunity for a hearing by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority, and the person has not otherwise been adjudicated as a mental defective under 18 U.S.C. 922(g)(4).


https://www.federalregister.gov/document...nstitution