Trigger sugestion

[LRRPF52]

Military triggers are single stage in the M16 family, although the grittiness of the take-up makes them feel like a two-stage trigger, so they kinda behave like one, but are unpredictable when they finally break the shot often.

[Peck1631]

So what do most shooters prefer? Two stage or single stage.

[Peck1631]

Chuck Hawk describes it well:

A two stage trigger has a long initial movement. The shooter pulls the trigger back to take up this slack until a sharply increased resistance is felt. (That is the first stage.) Then the actual surprise break trigger pull that will fire the rifle is begun, and from that point on the two stage trigger operates like a single stage trigger.


As I understand it, issue M4's have two stage triggers, as do most military weapons, since they supposedly prevent accidental firing. My single stage trigger on my 7mm WSM F class rifle is set at two pounds, and there is no perceptible movement until it releases. My AR's have 4 pound single stage triggers.

Firing factory AR's drives me nuts, since there is so much take up before the firing pin drops.

The M16's we carry dont have the two stage trigger. Its just a straight pull. Im not sure about the M4's though.

[bwaites]

The M16's we carry dont have the two stage trigger. Its just a straight pull. Im not sure about the M4's though.

They don't? A single stage trigger breaks with NO movement prior to the break. EVERY semi-auto military firearm I've fired has trigger motion prior to the release of the sear/hammer. That includes the M4, Barrett M107, and the M110 SASS. The only one that didn't was the M24, based on the Remington M700. I haven't fired an actual M16, but I don't recall that the trigger groups were pulled and changed in the upgrade. (downgrade? LOL!)

[LRRPF52]

Except for the SPR's, the M16 family has always had a military grade single-stage trigger. There is just so much take-up that they feel like 2-stage triggers to competitive rifle shooters who are spoiled (like you & me). On an actual 2-stage trigger, the initial take-up is handled by a different sear, then handed off to the final sear that breaks the shot. You can clearly see this when looking at any 2-stage trigger for the AR15. On a standard rack-grade trigger, there is only one sear engagement area at the front of the trigger and the bottom of the hammer. On a 2-stage, there is a rear sear on top of the trigger that engages the hammer like a disconnector, which usually handles the 1st stage. The final stage is somewhere else, depending on the design.

I prefer single-stage triggers for 3-gun and running/gunning carbines, while leaning more to the 2-stage for precision rifles. I set up the JP Single stages so I have very little over-travel, and little but safe initial creep. You can run rapid strings much faster with this type of trigger, which helps dramatically with times. It isn't such a concern with precision rifles.

[bwaites]

Except for the SPR's, the M16 family has always had a military grade single-stage trigger. There is just so much take-up that they feel like 2-stage triggers to competitive rifle shooters who are spoiled (like you & me). On an actual 2-stage trigger, the initial take-up is handled by a different sear, then handed off to the final sear that breaks the shot. You can clearly see this when looking at any 2-stage trigger for the AR15. On a standard rack-grade trigger, there is only one sear engagement area at the front of the trigger and the bottom of the hammer. On a 2-stage, there is a rear sear on top of the trigger that engages the hammer like a disconnector, which usually handles the 1st stage. The final stage is somewhere else, depending on the design.

I prefer single-stage triggers for 3-gun and running/gunning carbines, while leaning more to the 2-stage for precision rifles. I set up the JP Single stages so I have very little over-travel, and little but safe initial creep. You can run rapid strings much faster with this type of trigger, which helps dramatically with times. It isn't such a concern with precision rifles.

LRRPF52, thank you! I was hoping you or LR1955 would see this and jump in. So it is effectively a 2 stage, just not one in reality.

Thinking about it, I guess I knew that, since the military probably wouldn't spring for the extra cost of a true two stage in everybodies rack grade rifle!

All those I fired certainly were gritty, too, so that should have been a clue!

[Peck1631]

We only fire the weapon to qualify but, I dont recall the M16 having anything but a straight pull on the trigger though. No change in resistance during the trigger pull. I may have a case where I have never felt a two stage trigger, so I dont know the difference by feel?

[LRRPF52]

Here's a side view of a Rock River 2-stage:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]441[/ATTACH]

A lot of the basic 2-stage triggers have this same design. The Jard, and Geissele Adjustable are different, with the added features of being able to adjust pull weights, initial creep, and over-travel, making them more involved.

[bwaites]

Peck, its a single stage with a lot of travel, since I'm used to NO travel on my single stage triggers, and most civilian single stage triggers are setup that way, or as close as they can be, that long trigger pull FEELS like a first stage to me.

It's sort of gritty, then the sear releases and the hammer falls.

It's the difference between an M9 trigger and the 1911 trigger to me, if you've fired an M9 and a good 1911.

[Peck1631]

Awesome. I learned something today, thanks.

[LRRPF52]

Here's an AR15 single-stage, bare bones trigger and hammer:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]442[/ATTACH]

An M16 trigger, hammer, and disconnector are different, in that the hammer has an added hook at the top rear to interface with the AUTO sear in the rear of the lower receiver, the trigger is longer in the rear with an open trench, which allows the different disconnector to articulate with the AUTO selector (also different), in order to control the timing of the fire on AUTO. Since there is no need for any of that on a civilian AR15, the trigger system is simpler, but functions the same in the SEMI fire control mode.

In the military, one of the first things you learn about your M16 service rifle is to perform a functions check on it. When testing the fire-control group on SEMI, you place it on SEMI, pull and HOLD the trigger to the rear, while continuing to hold the trigger to the rear, you charge the weapon, allowing the BCG to go back into battery, then release the trigger. When they say you should hear an audible metallic click, that is the hammer being handed off from the disconnector back to sear engagement, which is important.

[sneaky one]

Send your basic trigger group to Bill Springfield at triggerwork.net, for 35.00, and a lighter spring I have a 3lb. no creep trigger. It's awesome.

[LRRPF52]

If you have more than a few brain cells in your skull, you can polish the sear engagement surface on the front of the trigger (the shiny part), using jeweler's rouge, toothpaste, bore paste, or other polishing compounds that won't remove the surface hardening of the trigger, then drop-in a JP reduced power spring kit. That will give you an excellent feeling trigger with about 3.5-4lbs of pull weight, but you will still have the take-up and over-travel. Depending on the type of AR, I either do that or go with a match trigger such as the JP or Geissele.

[Mutt]

Just pick up your basic single stage stock trigger and just polish what you got. I just can't justify the price of most of the high end triggers when using them in an AR platform. It's not a percision platform. Although, the AR's I've built and shot are a much better rifle than any GI issue rifle I've used. I basically grew up using M16's and M4's and they have terrible rough gritty unpredictable triggers. But, I am quite used to a little take up and overtravel.

I do have to admit, I've bought two lowers from Surplus Ammo and Arms over in Tacoma Washington. The sell the complete lowers for a very very nice price. Both complete lowers I purchased (at different times) have identical 3.8 pound trigger pulls. They have to be the best stock triggers I ever experienced on any AR, M16, M4. These triggers easily outshoot my abilities (in other words, they do thier jobs .... any error involved in from the user).

[kamrr4437]

ive done the polishing on a standard trigger for my ar-15 ive tested it and have 4lbs which feels really good. It has some takeup but its responsive. Now i ordered the tactical trigger from alexander arms which is a one stage trigger and it has adjustments on it to adjust the take up. And when they say you can adjust the take up they mean it. I have none. i thought i would have to work on this trigger to get it down to about a 2 1/2 lb trigger. Im glad i just put it in to test it. It registers 3 lbs. on my trigger tester. Actually got it adjusted down to 2 3/4 lbs but that was just to lite it went off to easily to me. So i raised it back up to 3 lbs. There is no take up when you put your finger on the trigger and pull you are imediately in the process of breaking it over and it doesnt have to move far. Great product for the price i am very happy with it. If you can put in a regular trigger then it should be no problem.

Keith

[LRRPF52]

I basically grew up using M16's and M4's and they have terrible rough gritty unpredictable triggers. But, I am quite used to a little take up and overtravel.

Of all the military service rifles I've used, the M16 family has the best-feeling trigger when compared to those in other countries. You really gain an appreciation for it when you try a G3, an FN, an L1A1, an FNC, a G36, or especially an AK.

The M16 family has shorter take-up, pull weights, and over-travel than those other designs by a large margin on average. Once we get spoiled by match triggers, it feels like a piece of crap, but it still is the best trigger among service rifles by far.

The worst trigger in the M16 series is in the M16A2, where the burst counter affects trigger pull with every shot. If one is accustomed to the M16A2 and regular Army M4 with the burst mechanism, it will be unpredictable because every shot is a different pull weight. This is why you will see zero targets with 2 shots close together, and 1 thrown. That is the final tooth on the burst cam before the cam resets to the next series of 3 increasingly larger teeth.