Thermal question

[va_connoisseur]

Hi Folks. I am looking to get into a budget thermal for hog hunting 3-4 times a year. I'm looking at the AGm Rattler. Is that a good place to start? Not looking to drop $3,000+ on something that will be rarely used. Thanks.

[lazyengineer]

Personally I'm a Baring Optics Hogster fan, especially for the money. But really, DNS has more mileage on Thermal than darned near anyone, so whatever he endorses is going to be your best bet.

[oyster]

I'd look at the ATN products. The LT versions are their low budget models, should work well for what you want.
Jay

[va_connoisseur]

I've heard really bad things about ATN. Seems like it's 50/50 whether you get one that works.

[Popeye212]

I will second lazyengineer on the Hogster. Thermal is the way to go for night hog hunting.

[Dt219]

I’d steer clear of Atn also most of my friends who did have one either thermal or night vision had issues.

[Double Naught Spy]

Hi Folks. I am looking to get into a budget thermal for hog hunting 3-4 times a year. I'm looking at the AGm Rattler. Is that a good place to start? Not looking to drop $3,000+ on something that will be rarely used. Thanks.

Not to nitpick, but I have to nitpick because it is important. You aren't looking at the AGM Rattler because the Rattler isn't a thermal scope, but a line of thermal scopes. I assume from your price, you are talking about either the TS19, TS25 or TS35. Don't bother with the 19, just don't.

Here is probably one of the best image comparison videos between the TS25, 35, Hogster, and Super Hogster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs0Ja-a3Jqk
[video=youtube;vs0Ja-a3Jqk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs0Ja-a3Jqk[/video]

This video is better than a lot of the (and I say this nicely) garbage review videos don't by sales people that aren't going to be critical of products they sell and often first time buyers who are so gosh darned pleased to have a thermal that has changed their lives, but who don't really have much clue about anything other than what they purchased.

What makes this video so good is that unlike many of the review vids, it gives distances to the man and his dog. A lot of the vids will show people shooting hogs, but they don't tell you that the reason why the image looks so good is because they are 25 yards away and they aren't showing you the video of the hogs at 250 yards where maybe they had trouble telling the difference between hogs, calves, and deer. The thermal conditions in this video are good, likely very good. Things will not always be that nice and you won't always be able to see all of the animal due to high grass or other vegetation.

With that in mind, I will say that generally speaking, the more lower end you go, the more time you will need to spend studying your probable target to verify that it is what you want to be shooting. In the video above, at what point can you no longer recognize the dog as a domestic dog, for example. At 150 yards, you can't even hardly make out that the dog has a tail with the TS25. Could you tell it from a coyote if it was just walking through the screen?

Buying a thermal is a lot like buying a house. You should buy the absolute most you can afford. If your budget is $3K and you like AGM, get the TS35. Most individual dealers will cut you a deal verbally and you likely can get about 10% off or so, give or take, so shop around and try to avoid paying list price plus tax and shipping.

Both Bearing Optics and AGM have good reputations unlike another company mentioned here that has an exceptionally polarized large number of users. I have not personally used AGM products. I have used the Hogster, Super Hogster. If I was going the hogster route, I would spend the extra money for the Super Hogster. That is my opinion and not a condemnation of anybody else's choices.

---------------------

Changing gears a bit. You say you only hunt 3 or 4 times a year. Cool. Are you out for 1 night, 2 nights, a week, or what, 3 or 4 times a year? How important to you is your hunt. We used to guide guys that came in from all over the country. They would come in from Illinois, Minnesota, Georgia, and Washington State to hunt hogs. Each trip, between food, lodging, paying the guide, airfare or driving expenses, etc. would literally cost them a few thousand dollars and some of these guys would show up with junk optics, junk ammo, or other junk gear. Junk optics that couldn't see squat or failed during the course of one of the evenings. Junk ammo (because you don't want to shoot "good" ammo at hogs) that wouldn't drop hogs....and you get the picture. Basically, they spent a ton of money and had a less than steller time because they brought junk. I won't go into the guys that showed and didn't know how to use their gear. My point is this, but the lower quality your gear, chances are the harder you will have to work to get the same job done.

Are you hunting the same place each time. For example, maybe you have a lease you go to where you have a feeder set up at 75 yards and sit in a blind until hogs come in. Is that the case? If so, I would say you could definitely get by with any of the four scopes in the video equally well because you are not challenging the capabilities of the optics at that short of a distance and going with the least expensive of the four would be the most practical way to go.

If you have a feeder set up at 200 yards, I would not feel comfortable with the lower end scopes. I would either set up my stand closer or buy a higher end scope.

If you and spot and stalk hunting in different environments and conditions, not watching a bait spot, I would go with the best you could afford.

You can do a lot of good hunting with any of the four scopes mentioned in the video, but you will have to work harder with some than others to be sure you are safe.

[Klem]

DNS,

The comparison video is very interesting. I see what you mean with the cheaper two scopes confounding the shooters' ability to ID the species of the target at distance.

What about the detail between the two higher end offerings: the Super H and 35? We see nice detail of the trees and road in the 35, yet as the guy runs back there is more detail of his body/clothing with the Super H - The 35 seems to 'white-out' his clothing more, but has the contextual detail of an image intensifier.

[Double Naught Spy]

The Hogster gets you 17 microns between sensor pixels and the Super Hogster gets you 12 microns. The smaller the distance, the better the image (all other factors being the same such as lens size, hz rate, etc.)

[va_connoisseur]

DNS,

Thanks for the thorough review and feedback. I've been following your videos for years. I had convinced myself to get the TS35 before reading your response. I'll keep renting them where I hunt. I don't hunt hogs enough to justify a $5K optic.

[Double Naught Spy]

For a lot of people, that is a very good alternative. Just curious, who are you renting from? Are you happy with their customer service? If so, you might share that insight here for those who may wish to go that route.

[va_connoisseur]

The place I hunt is in Sylvester, Georgia. It's Hog Snipers. They have rental guns with Pulsar thermals. He recommended the TS35 as a good entry level thermal. Good dude, great guide service.

[204 AR]

I have a Super Hogster and the Hogster 25, which I use to scan with and also put it on a 22lr AR to shoot mice and other vermin with around the house. My buddy has the TS 35.

DNS had some good guidance. What to buy really depends on ranges you shoot, compared to how much fov you need/want.

For instance, the SH at 3x base mag is head and shoulders nicer for coyotes out past about 150 or so, the detail is much better. But the H 25 is a better scanner at 1.4 base mag and double or more the fov. The TS 35 and H 35 will be about half way in between at a 2x base mag. For what I "imagine" of pig hunting, I think the 35's would be a good fit and be pretty comparable. The Bering product has 1 extra year of warranty, while the AGM has internal video recording and is a bit less expensive.

[Pootie]

Bering Hogster R25 & 35 are upgrading to "Vibe" with onboard recording and wifi.

[oyster]

Another observation or question. While thermal is very cool and a very useful tool, if you are only hunting that infrequently would an IR scope be more budget friendly and accomplish the same results? Also to the ATN comments, I have one IR and two thermals, older HD version. All have worked great, my main one 2.5x25-640 on an AR 6.5 Grendel, I use every week and it's over 3 yrs old.
Jay

[lazyengineer]

Another observation or question. While thermal is very cool and a very useful tool, if you are only hunting that infrequently would an IR scope be more budget friendly and accomplish the same results? Also to the ATN comments, I have one IR and two thermals, older HD version. All have worked great, my main one 2.5x25-640 on an AR 6.5 Grendel, I use every week and it's over 3 yrs old.
Jay

Glad to hear it. Historically ATN and IR, and in particular ATN IR, tends to be viewed very similar to as you describe at first and by those just entering who would prefer to keep costs under control I get it, I was there. Ultimately that usually leads to dissapointment, and upgraded from fairly quickly. I too thought that hey I can make it work, spent the money. Ruined a few night trips. And upgraded to a proper Thermal from a non ATN brand. That's the typical experience. In your case, sounds like it's going well, so not my place to tell you what to do; but since it was brought up, that's in general the typical path.

[Double Naught Spy]

Another observation or question. While thermal is very cool and a very useful tool, if you are only hunting that infrequently would an IR scope be more budget friendly and accomplish the same results? Also to the ATN comments, I have one IR and two thermals, older HD version. All have worked great, my main one 2.5x25-640 on an AR 6.5 Grendel, I use every week and it's over 3 yrs old.
Jay

Glad you ATN worked for you. ATN can and does make good scopes. They also seem to make a higher than industry average number of lemons. Then you have to deal with their customer service. Their customer service seems to be random. Some people apparently get royally screwed over by it. Others get good service. My point here is that if you go with ATN, it is a real gamble that you will get a reliable optic and that if you need service, that getting service will go smoothly. Other companies like Sightmark (for their Wraith digital NV), Pulsar, Trijicon, Armasight, Bering Optics, etc. all seem to have much better customer service when it is needed. With ANY electro-optic device, eventually you will need customer service or to replace the optic if it is old enough (out of warranty). No electronics last forever, no matter what you pay for them.