I was reading some posts about these satern barrels. It sounds like everyone prefers the single cut rifling but damn 6.5 fluted 18 barrels are pretty hard to find. In everyones expert opinion do you think you can obtain sub MOA accuracy with this barrel? Ive been recommended Lilja but I dont feel like spending $600.
I am also interested in the match faxon fluted barrels but I cant find one anywhere.
Satern/Liberty barrels were great! Their quality has tailed off some in recent years though. You "could" get a great barrel from them and many do but........... Not for a guaranteed under MOA weapon. Lilja is a quality top shelf barrel. Period! Same with Krieger. If you mount a Lilja or Krieger in a new build using disciplined standards, you will have an under MOA rifle. If you can't afford either, hold onto your money and save more to get one or spend it taking a chance on getting a good shooter. My original barrel on a PSA 20" build took 300 plus dollars in ammo through it before it settled into a half to three-quarter inch @100 yards rifle. That amount is closer to over 500 dollars at today's prices. If I had saved more money before buying cheaper, I would have actually saved money buying the more expensive barrel!!! That's a hard truth! If you aren't looking for bench-rest accuracy, then by all means, buy a Satern/Liberty barrel or a BCA for that matter and enjoy shooting it! It's all in what you expect. But you expect an under MOA rifle and that requires some upfront investment! I learned my lesson on barrels AND don't forget trigger quality!
Good Luck to You!
Rauhaardackel Wrote:Thank you for all the great info! Are the faxon match barrels capable of 1moa precision?
Depends on how well you can build a accurate gun.
Depends on how well you can work up a load
Depends on how well you can shoot sub moa groups.
Depends on how well the guys finishing the barrel that day at the company did. It's still a rack grade barrel. So it's always going to be a 50/50 shot at being a good barrel or a crap barrel.
Most guys I have seen post here with faxon barrels seem too do good groups with them.
If you want better then a 50/50 chance of sub moa you got to pay for better then rack grade.
A5BLASTER Wrote:Depends on how well you can build a accurate gun.
Depends on how well you can work up a load
Depends on how well you can shoot sub moa groups.
Depends on how well the guys finishing the barrel that day at the company did. It's still a rack grade barrel. So it's always going to be a 50/50 shot at being a good barrel or a crap barrel.
Most guys I have seen post here with faxon barrels seem too do good groups with them.
If you want better then a 50/50 chance of sub moa you got to pay for better then rack grade.
I understand your points, was just wanting to know if the barrel is capable. I know I may run out of talent.
Do you guys recommend a specific brake or will an A2 do just fine for 2MOA and better?
I have a liberty 18" button rifled barrel in 6.5 grendel and it shoots sub moa with my tailored handloads. It has been great especially for a $200 rack grade bbl. It only took around 50 rounds for it to settle in and shoot sub moa. I'd say go for it, if it wont shoot they will get you another bbl that will.
Rauhaardackel Wrote:I understand your points, was just wanting to know if the barrel is capable. I know I may run out of talent.
Do you guys recommend a specific brake or will an A2 do just fine for 2MOA and better?
Its capable of 50/50 chance it will be good or junk. That's the point I'm trying to drive across to you.
If you insist on buying rack grade it's at best going to be a 50/50 situation.
As to the muzzle device, long as its drilled for 6.5 mm bullets are larger it will work fine. I have used everything from flash hiders to the most aggressive muzzle brake ever tested. They all work.
04-11-2021, 10:49 PM (This post was last modified: 04-13-2021, 02:40 AM by Klem.)
Ruah,
You need to be seriously concerned about weight if you want fluting. Fluting takes effort and costs a lot more for not much weight saving. There are no other benefits.
A fluted Lilja 319 weighs 2.16lbs and costs $640
An unfluted Lilja 319 weighs 2.47lbs and costs $510
You save .31lb at a cost of an extra $100. When you think about how much the assembled gun is going to weigh including scope and full mag, with a 0.3lb saving - I don't think you can yawn loud enough.
As for a muzzle brake, everyone has their favorites and there is no one that stands out on this forum. You have to wonder about a bird cage however. Those things are designed to change the shape of the muzzle flash to help hide you at night against a human enemy. To the extent that works is arguable but when lives are on the line every bit helps. As a civilian shooter you are not going to need what it was designed to do and yet it will add length, weight and cost. Not much, but a thread protector is another option and you can clean and inspect the crown on a regular basis.
You don't really need a brake either with this calibre, unless there's something wrong with your shoulder or you are concerned about 3-gun match splits. But a brake will serve you better than a cage. One good thing about a brake apart from making it more comfortable to shoot is that you should be able to see fall of shot at long range if you are careful.
Fluting and hiders are cosmetic. The cost of a brake and fluting is the difference between a rack grade tomato stake and an Olympic-grade match barrel. One will shoot, and the other will sort of shoot - hopefully.
My point is that neither fluting nor muzzle device is as important as the quality of the barrel, which is everything.
You need to be seriously concerned about weight if you want fluting. Fluting takes effort and costs a lot more for not much weight saving. There are no other benefits.
A fluted Lilja 319 weighs 2.16lbs and costs $640
An unfluted Lilja 319 weighs 2.47lbs and costs $510
You save .31lb at a cost of an extra $100. When you think about how much the assembled gun is going to weigh including scope and full mag, with a 0.3lb saving - I don't think you can yawn loud enough.
As for a muzzle brake, everyone has their favorites and there is no one that stands out on this forum. You have to wonder about a bird cage however. Those things are designed to change the shape of the muzzle flash to help hide you at night against a human enemy. To the extent that works is arguable but when lives are on the line every bit helps. As a civilian shooter however you are not going to need what it was designed to do and yet it will add length, weight and cost. Not much, but a thread protector is another option and you can clean and inspect the crown on a regular basis.
You don't really need a brake either with this calibre, unless there's something wrong with your shoulder or you are concerned about 3-gun match splits. But a brake will serve you better than a cage. One good thing about a brake apart from making it more comfortable to shoot is that you should be able to see fall of shot at long range if you are careful.
Fluting and hiders are cosmetic. The cost of a brake and fluting is the difference between a rack grade tomato stake and an Olympic-grade match barrel. One will shoot, and the other will sort of shoot - hopefully.
My point is that neither fluting nor muzzle device is as important as the quality of the barrel, which is everything.
All great points, thanks for your input. I just really love the look of a fluted barrel
I love a fluted barrel as well and as they reduce weight while aiding rigidity but it isn't needed. BCA makes real pretty barrels but wow! I would want a plain Jane black nitride barrel that shoots everything well than a pretty looking rifle any day. Especially where I'm holding the line on costs. It was Townsend Whelen who stated "only accurate rifles are interesting". Don't get me wrong! There are many rifles that are antiques that are not in shooting condition that are interesting, but I agree wholeheartedly with this long quoted statement. In the grand scheme of things, what is ANY gun suppose to do? (A= place a projectile on the spot the shooter is aiming at every time). Many guns reliably fail to do this and as such, fade fast from the company brochures and history in general. The AR is a very accurate platform but it has to start with quality parts to be a reliably accurate rifle. The two biggest parts are the barrel and the trigger group along with quality ammo. I know the human behind the rifle is important also but I've seen some pi&#-poor shooters smile ear to ear after that have fired an accurate small caliber rifle. They were never behind a good weapon before! Once you have the basic reliable accurate rifle built, then you can add "stuff" to it to make it your own!
Fluted are over rated, how much of the flutes are even going to be exposed 3" to 6" which is cosmetically insignificant. I dropped the coin on a Lilja, and it put to shame all of my other barrels on the first grouping. So was the extra $160 worth the expense, oh hell yeah it was and add in the ammo shortage we are in it would have saved me money chasing the small dot.
Rosecrans1 Wrote:I love a fluted barrel as well and as they reduce weight while aiding rigidity but it isn't needed. BCA makes real pretty barrels but wow! I would want a plain Jane black nitride barrel that shoots everything well than a pretty looking rifle any day. Especially where I'm holding the line on costs. It was Townsend Whelen who stated "only accurate rifles are interesting". Don't get me wrong! There are many rifles that are antiques that are not in shooting condition that are interesting, but I agree wholeheartedly with this long quoted statement. In the grand scheme of things, what is ANY gun suppose to do? (A= place a projectile on the spot the shooter is aiming at every time). Many guns reliably fail to do this and as such, fade fast from the company brochures and history in general. The AR is a very accurate platform but it has to start with quality parts to be a reliably accurate rifle. The two biggest parts are the barrel and the trigger group along with quality ammo. I know the human behind the rifle is important also but I've seen some pi&#-poor shooters smile ear to ear after that have fired an accurate small caliber rifle. They were never behind a good weapon before! Once you have the basic reliable accurate rifle built, then you can add "stuff" to it to make it your own!
Fluting does not add rigidity. It just maintains its ridgedness that it had before the fluting reduced overall weight.
But you are correct only accurate rifles are interesting.
I have a question for you. Do you want to consistently shoot and hit coke cans or golf balls at 200yds? If minute of coke can makes you smile, then most rack grade barrels will too. If you want to consistently hit golf balls at 200... your barrel options are limited.
peak98
Rauhaardackel Wrote:All great points, thanks for your input. I just really love the look of a fluted barrel
I paid extra for the flutes. Only because it was the only version Lilja had in stock. The normal Grendel barrel was going to be 2 months out and I couldnt wait lol. Glad I went with Lilja though immediate improvement with groups
I have had two Liberty barrels, one 18 non-fluted and my current 20 fluted. Both are capable of shooting 1/2 MOA with hand loads. More often than not while shooting 5-shot groups off a rest its a 3/4 to 1 gun all day long.
I would want a plain Jane black nitride barrel that shoots everything well than a pretty looking rifle any day. Especially where I'm holding the line on costs. It was Townsend Whelen who stated "only accurate rifles are interesting". Don't get me wrong! There are many rifles that are antiques that are not in shooting condition that are interesting, but I agree wholeheartedly with this long quoted statement. In the grand scheme of things, what is ANY gun suppose to do? (A= place a projectile on the spot the shooter is aiming at every time). Many guns reliably fail to do this and as such, fade fast from the company brochures and history in general. The AR is a very accurate platform but it has to start with quality parts to be a reliably accurate rifle. The two biggest parts are the barrel and the trigger group along with quality ammo. I know the human behind the rifle is important also but I've seen some pi&#-poor shooters smile ear to ear after that have fired an accurate small caliber rifle. They were never behind a good weapon before! Once you have the basic reliable accurate rifle built, then you can add "stuff" to it to make it your own!
