Hornady ELD-M out penetrates SST

[Stinky Coyote]

YouTube Great Grendel: 6.5mm Grendel Hornady Black 123 ELD Gel Test

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=in9FB5WbKWM

Fantastic performance. At 3:50 he mentions the SST made it a little under 18”. Where the ELD-M went 19.7”. It expanded to average 2.27x times or 227%, started at .264” and expanded to average .600”.

So...all you hunters out there, take note.????

This was always my choice, but nice to see data that verifies what I’ve seen afield.??

[A5BLASTER]

Great vid.

Didn't you kill a moose with a CZ grendel and 123 eld-m factory ammo?

[jmkhenka]

I dont get why people hunt with match bullets. There are so many good hunting rounds to pick from. SST is hardly any better then ELD-M but at least they tried to make a hunting bullet out of it.

For varmint or stuff not for the table, i can understand. But deer? Never!

I was once keen on the Eld-X in my 6.5x55, but I realised that its made for the 500+ meter ranges that americans tend to hunt at, not the sub 100 meters we expect in sweden. Taking on something like a moose with that sure kills it, but we hunt for meat and there is no reason to pepper it all with lead fragments. Give me a heavy roundnose or softnose with bonded lead core if you must use lead bullets at all.

[Double Naught Spy]

I dont get why people hunt with match bullets. There are so many good hunting rounds to pick from. SST is hardly any better then ELD-M but at least they tried to make a hunting bullet out of it.

For varmint or stuff not for the table, i can understand. But deer? Never!

I was once keen on the Eld-X in my 6.5x55, but I realised that its made for the 500+ meter ranges that americans tend to hunt at, not the sub 100 meters we expect in sweden. Taking on something like a moose with that sure kills it, but we hunt for meat and there is no reason to pepper it all with lead fragments. Give me a heavy roundnose or softnose with bonded lead core if you must use lead bullets at all.

First thing you need to realize is that how a bullet is marketed really has nothing absolute to do with how it performs. If a bullet company has a bullet that they find to be accurate enough and they need a match bullet in their lineup, it is marketed as a match bullet. If they need a varmint bullet and it likes to break apart on impact, it gets marketed as a varmint bullet. It may even be marketed as a frangible big game bullet (which is a feature many hunters like and for which Berger has made a lot of money).

The Hornady AMAX bullet was a marketed match bullet that Grendel deer hunters seemed to love. Hornady never marketed it as a hunting bullet and had a disclaimer on their website saying it was not for hunting, but people loved it for hunting.

I do agree with you about polluting the extra meat with bits of lead. I hunt with a frangible varmint round made for little varmints and I use it for hogs. It works well. When folks ask me what I suggest for hunting hogs, my question to them is whether they are meat hunting or animal control hunting. For the meat hunters, I suggest bullets that tend to stay together better. However, some people are willing to lose a little extra meat or choose their shots such that they don't damage a lot of meat.

Only a tiny percentage of American hunters hunt at 500+ meter range. You will find the vast majority do most or all of their hunting within 180 meters and the vast majority of those will be within 90 meters.

[grayfox]

I dont get why people hunt with match bullets. There are so many good hunting rounds to pick from. SST is hardly any better then ELD-M but at least they tried to make a hunting bullet out of it.

For varmint or stuff not for the table, i can understand. But deer? Never!

I was once keen on the Eld-X in my 6.5x55, but I realised that its made for the 500+ meter ranges that americans tend to hunt at, not the sub 100 meters we expect in sweden. Taking on something like a moose with that sure kills it, but we hunt for meat and there is no reason to pepper it all with lead fragments. Give me a heavy roundnose or softnose with bonded lead core if you must use lead bullets at all.

There are 3 types of hunters regardless of which country you're in.
1. People who hunt with a bullet because they know/like how it performs for them.
2. People who hunt with a bullet because that's what they were "told" to hunt with.
3. People who hunt with a bullet because they have no real idea of bullet selection but they're blasting away anyway.
4. People who hunt with a bullet because that's the one they have.

As to meat loss, I lose more meat to the butcher's knife than I do to the wound channel. Maybe that's just me.

Note also that the Eldx, like any other bullet, has an effective range for the caliber and cartridge you've selected. I use it nicely in my 6 Creed at up to 300 yds but I'm not going any further than that for ethical-shot reasons.

Most Americans hunt and shoot at 100 yds or less.

Pick your bullet properly, it is what translates your intention to the animal. Again, this is true no matter what country you're talking about.

[Dinny]

Hey grayfox! I had to remove my socks to get an accurate count, but that looks like 4 to me, not 3.

Thanks, Dinny

[grayfox]

AAAGHHHHH!!!!

Joe Biden used his Chinese network snooping and re-wrote that in Biden-ese before I posted!!!!!
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!
[INDENT]I've got a three-letter word for that: Jobs, J-O-B-S.
Two words: Not going to happen.[/INDENT]

good catch.

[Stinky Coyote]

Lol, well said grayfox.

The eld-m is simply marketed as a match bullet. What it really is...is a modern high bc high sd designed for rapid expansion, which coincidentally also means it's a fantastic hunting bullet when launched at, and or, impacts at moderate velocities.

Have killed plenty of game with bullets and cartridges along the spectrums of velocity, sectional density, rapid or delayed controlled expansion. My favorite performance has been the above...high sd bullets of rapid expansion construction at moderate velocities. And here's why...

You get the best of both worlds, you retain enough sd (penetration) as it expands violently (greater internal damage) that it's nearly like mixing two bullets into one. I broke this down a lot further and have created my own terms that should be used to drive forward ballistics imo. Have a look here.

-2250 fps impact velocity (Equivalent of a 200 yard impact velocity launched from at a low to modest inititial velocity approx. 2500 fps)
-1383 ft/lbs impact energy
-19.7” penetration depth on ballistics gel
-78.6% weight retention of bullet (96.66 grains)
-Bullet mushroom textbook, core/jacket stayed together, mushroom cap peeled over itself to about the base of the bullet, max expansion at widest point was .645” and narrowest point was .547” for a .600” average expansion diameter. Original diameter .264”, expansion equals 2.27 times original, or 227%.
-Final Sectional Density of the recovered bullet 0.038.(96.66 grains at .600" diam.)
-Sectional Density Reduction Rate - 4.3% per inch.
-Energy Transfer Rate – 5.08% per inch. (Dumped all 1383 ft/lbs into those 19.7" of penetration, 70.2 ft/lbs per inch)

To summarize:

Start SD .252 (100%)
End SD .038 (15%)
Difference SD .214 (85%)
Depth Achieved 19.7"
SD Reduction Rate - SDRR (0.01 per inch, or 4.3% per inch)
Energy Reduction Rate - ERR (70.2 ft/lbs per inch, or 5% per inch)
Expansion Ratio 2.27x (227%)
Weight Retention 78.6%

Now imagine a world where there was a standardized test impact velocity and all hunting bullets able to compare this way? Hornady...how's your budget for ballistics gel? Let's get crackin.

Just to get the imaginations going here...currently we mostly do all this by opinion and by what worked. With a lot less of 'why' things worked. Ie; we have recommended bullets for different classes of game that loosely base on sd and construction. Yet they still have to be marketed as such to be considered a 'hunting bullet'...which is horse poo imo. It's 2020, we can do better than that.

Class 2 game, deer family, recommended sd of .200 or higher, class 3 elk/moose recommended sd of .250 or higher. That's about as far as we take it...along with how it's marketed.

We have more than a century of baseline knowledge that would corroborate why a .416 rem mag does pretty unimpressive work on a mountain goat when by all accounts it should turn the goat into a canoe. Yet a .270 win with a little 130gr absolutely flattens the goat with opposite amount of impressiveness. Why? The ability to compare is possible, we understand more than enough about this to take it to the next level and start designing bullets to be even more flexible and versatile using a standard similar to above.

I'm not sure the 'per inch' format is the best but seems feasible so far. Sometimes the first solution thought of is the best. Anyway, the big number there that would tell the story of almost all the other numbers there would be the SDRR.

You can see that over the course of that 19.7" of penetration that bullet dropped .214 SD...that's more than most deer bullets have to begin with. And...if you're going to drop that amount of SD that will show a direct relationship to expansion potential.

I hope yall find my covid musings on ballistics entertaining. You can shoot whatever you like, i'll do the same, i know what's going to happen and happy to use within my limits afield.

[Stinky Coyote]

I missed an important detail. The term i use for what the bullet does from the hide onward is 'work'...the wound channel etc.

For a long time i argued ft/lbs energy was a useless measure however i believe with these new eyes it can help show the 'work' to be expected, it can help show that this measure isn't useless. It sure is in the case of the .416 vs goat as with its delayed controlled expansion and high sd it could go through 8 goats with moderate damage...but when you have a goat tag you're only allowed to shoot 1 lol. And besides, trying to get 8 goats all lined up for the one shot would be take some help from the devine.

Of course this relates if all bullets compared to the same test. Then you can see which ones do more 'work' over x-amount of distances etc. It will just allow you to really find the performance you want to take afield. With a lot less 'opinion' or ....just throw a 180 out of 30 and you'll be fine.

[Stinky Coyote]

Having some trouble with edit feature, keep deleting, anyway.

My mouth starts to water when i think about the potential direction for future hunting bullet development using the data's we can obtain more usefully. The goal posts we could create. We could really start creating even more flexible/versatile bullets that hit wider and wider ranges of performance capabilities afield.

[Goochylogic]

Guys, excellent discussion. I personally like a bullet that comes apart and dumps its energy into the animal. I’ve seen quality hunting bullets in higher caliber rifles do nothing but loose deer. Not all of them. A couple of my friends including me have been using the American Gunner ammo with fast kill shots on deer. Maybe its just shot placement, dont know but it works for us. Like I said, good discussion.

[Stinky Coyote]

Great vid.

Didn't you kill a moose with a CZ grendel and 123 eld-m factory ammo?

First thing you need to realize is that how a bullet is marketed really has nothing absolute to do with how it performs. If a bullet company has a bullet that they find to be accurate enough and they need a match bullet in their lineup, it is marketed as a match bullet. If they need a varmint bullet and it likes to break apart on impact, it gets marketed as a varmint bullet. It may even be marketed as a frangible big game bullet (which is a feature many hunters like and for which Berger has made a lot of money).

The Hornady AMAX bullet was a marketed match bullet that Grendel deer hunters seemed to love. Hornady never marketed it as a hunting bullet and had a disclaimer on their website saying it was not for hunting, but people loved it for hunting.

I do agree with you about polluting the extra meat with bits of lead. I hunt with a frangible varmint round made for little varmints and I use it for hogs. It works well. When folks ask me what I suggest for hunting hogs, my question to them is whether they are meat hunting or animal control hunting. For the meat hunters, I suggest bullets that tend to stay together better. However, some people are willing to lose a little extra meat or choose their shots such that they don't damage a lot of meat.

Only a tiny percentage of American hunters hunt at 500+ meter range. You will find the vast majority do most or all of their hunting within 180 meters and the vast majority of those will be within 90 meters.

Also well said, totally agree. Those long range hunters seem to love these more frangible bullets as at distance when they slow down the bullets behave more like bonded controlled expansion bullets still. Yes they are a little more damaging up close but those delayed controlled bullets at distance don't do much work, pencil holes. You can get away with little sd and pretty rapid expansion on deer no doubt, so most bullets period from the known cartridges will do the job further than most can shoot.