I just got a "NIB" Sabre Defense upper in 6.5 Grendel. Yes I know they are out of business, the shop I got it from is very cooperative and working with me on this. So, like all my new guns I thoroughly clean the barrel before I shoot it.
I notice with the naked eye (I don't have access to a bore scope) some irregularities with the lands. About 1-2" in front of the throat are two "dings" in the lands, they appear to be partway across and half the depth of the land.
Also one of the lands at the throat looks different, it just looks wider and flatter than the others, like its not cut the same.
So the shop graciously said, shoot it, if you don't like it, I can have a full refund. So as I am breaking it in and cleaning between shots, I get one .6 and one 1.2" three shot groups. This is just what landed on the paper between cleanings. I am shooting factory AA 115g Berger loads, the only ammo I have. I am not impressed, but not terrified yet either.
So should a barrel with visible defects,just be sent back, as its probably really much more of a mess than I can see, or should just ignore it as long as it shoots. I am kind of thinking for all the money the bore should be perfect. I supposedly paid "dealer cost" for it, which I deemed a fair price.
Any others with similar experiences, what did/would you do? If you had a similar barrel, did you keep it, are you glad you did?
I'd shoot it more and give it a chance since you have the opportunity to send it back. Run a box of factory ammo thru it. See if it changes. I know it's On your mind and may cause you to not trust the rifle. If that's the case, you should send it back and make it easy on yourself. You shouldn't have to settle for anything but new since you paid for new.
Should I keep it, or not. (I thought I could do a poll, but now I can't find it)
Just got back from the range today, the details..
Shooter- me, pretty average I think, no indication I am a 1/2 MOA shooter, but I am probably better than 1 MOA.
Range conditions, very good, slight breeze, 35 deg.
Gun- Sabre Defence 20" SS MED. contour, full flutes, Gill brake, 6.5 G. Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14
Ammo- AA Berger 115g HPBT, 2465fps on chrono at 6 ft.
Group 1: 3-shot .9"
Group 2: 3-shot .9"
Group 3: 5-shot 1.1" (first 4 shots went .5")
I have no idea the capability of the ammo I am using, and my only expectations for the gun is that it is at least sub MOA, for as far as 600 yds. I plan on reloading
for it as soon as I shoot up the shells I have. What do you think? Is this about as good as I can expect in a light 6.5 G setup? (I don't want a heavy bench type setup) Or should I send it back and hope the next one is better? Thanks for your opinion....
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salm0trutta Wrote:Should I keep it, or not. (I thought I could do a poll, but now I can't find it)
Just got back from the range today, the details..
Shooter- me, pretty average I think, no indication I am a 1/2 MOA shooter, but I am probably better than 1 MOA.
Range conditions, very good, slight breeze, 35 deg.
Gun- Sabre Defence 20" SS MED. contour, full flutes, Gill brake, 6.5 G. Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14
Ammo- AA Berger 115g HPBT, 2465fps on chrono at 6 ft.
Group 1: 3-shot .9"
Group 2: 3-shot .9"
Group 3: 5-shot 1.1" (first 4 shots went .5")
I have no idea the capability of the ammo I am using, and my only expectations for the gun is that it is at least sub MOA, for as far as 600 yds. I plan on reloading
for it as soon as I shoot up the shells I have. What do you think? Is this about as good as I can expect in a light 6.5 G setup? (I don't want a heavy bench type setup) Or should I send it back and hope the next one is better? Thanks for your opinion....
SAL:
What is your 'gut' instinct? You are probably right.
I have never owned a barrel that was defective yet performed well past about 100 yards. You may get it to group relatively well at 100 but I bet it will never group as well as it could. And when you get to 200 with any load, you will find that things won't get better with distance even if you use the best components for the ammunition.
You see, since you already know the lands and grooves show damage, you will never know if poor performance was the result of the barrel or your loads and marksmanship ability. It is always a good idea to eliminate any confounding variable when you are messing with a precision instrument.
LR1955
LR1955 Wrote:SAL:
What is your 'gut' instinct? You are probably right.
I have never owned a barrel that was defective yet performed well past about 100 yards. You may get it to group relatively well at 100 but I bet it will never group as well as it could. And when you get to 200 with any load, you will find that things won't get better with distance even if you use the best components for the ammunition.
You see, since you already know the lands and grooves show damage, you will never know if poor performance was the result of the barrel or your loads and marksmanship ability. It is always a good idea to eliminate any confounding variable when you are messing with a precision instrument.
LR1955
I second what LR is saying. You don't want to be second guessing your equipment. Either you have confidence in it or not. Follow your instincts.
I'd clean it up and return it for a refund. Don't keep shooting it. That will make doing the right thing harder.
Hoot
First, sincere thanks for the advice, as you can tell I tend to "think" about things perhaps a bit too much. I just think the Grendel is so cute (don't judge me by that ;-), and I finally get one and it doesn't look just right, but it shoots OK - now I have to give it back! Oh this is hard...
So let me paraphrase what I am hearing. " that's certainly not great accuracy, and you should expect that or better for the 6.5 G. Second if you see things that are not right, chances are they will always bother you (this is true) and you can spend hundreds, if not thousands of dollars trying stuff to get it to shoot, and it may or may not get there....". If I misinterpreted your comments let me know.
Second, where to go from here. I had a difficult time finding any upper that was close to what I want. Everyone says "talk to so and so, they will build you whatever you want". What I want is to find is someone who LIKES to build light (4 lb.) 20" SAAMI spec Grendel uppers. Other than AA, no one even lists a barrel that comes close to those specs, I am sure they would do it, but I have had much better luck dealing with gunsmiths that have a personal interest similar to mine, than asking a "good" one to build something they don't want to... So I talked to AA today, and they dropped thier UL upper, It will be supplying a UL barrel assembly in the near future, they decline to say who would be building thier barrels. The only other option is to ask Satern (again) to build me one, although I asked them once and they never got back to me. (not sure if there is bad blood there, and they don't want to hear about a SAAMI spec chamber, or if they are just too busy, still frustrating.
Other thoughts on a source for what I want?
Thanks again.
Last I heard, Sabre got taken down by the ATF. Not sure who bought their assets, warranty continuity, etc.
Sabre is indeed DOA. I knew that in advance and negotiated a sale price based on that fact. As far as I know their military contracts were bought up in an auction with colt, colt lost. There is no warranty, service etc for a Sabre. Just that they were well respected when in business.
Hoot Wrote:I'd clean it up and return it for a refund. Don't keep shooting it. That will make doing the right thing harder.
Hoot
Absolutely ..... send it back
Edit for content: Last I heard from Saturn was that they were no longer going to make grendel barrels. This was prior to AA releasing and the SAAMI certification. When I asked them if they were going to make any .264 barrels, they said "YES" ..... but, they wouldn't be Grendel barrels. After this, AA anounced they released the restrictions and got thier SAAMI cert. I'm guessing that just about everyone will now be making some kind of Grendel barrels. Give Saturn a call. I'll bet they will make you a Grendel barrel or at least a barrel with the same specs.
send it back. not worth the possible long term risks.
http://templarcustom.com/
Call Bob at Templar. He has bartlein cut rifled barrel/bolt combo for about 575 last time i checked. Excellent shooting tubes. 1/2 moa consistently and i've only been shooting for a little over a year.
Little late getting in on this thread but "Sabre Defense barrel defects" certainly caught my attention. I too have a Sabre upper, 20 inch, stainless fluted. Initially it would not shoot better than 2 - 2.25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Returned it to Saber to be rebarreled; they said there were "cracked lands" in the barrel. With the new barrel it reliably shoots .5 - .6 five shot groups at 100 yards with my hunting loads. Sabre was easy to deal with and it was only later I learned the full extent of their troubles with ATF. Looking at the timeline, my upper was at Sabre about the time their inventory was being confiscated by the Feds so I guess I was lucky to even get it back. I too would recommend the upper be returned. There is just too much good equipment available to have to worry if your barrel will shoot or not.
Berkhoven Wrote:Little late getting in on this thread but "Sabre Defense barrel defects" certainly caught my attention. I too have a Sabre upper, 20 inch, stainless fluted. Initially it would not shoot better than 2 - 2.25" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. Returned it to Saber to be rebarreled; they said there were "cracked lands" in the barrel. With the new barrel it reliably shoots .5 - .6 five shot groups at 100 yards with my hunting loads. Sabre was easy to deal with and it was only later I learned the full extent of their troubles with ATF. Looking at the timeline, my upper was at Sabre about the time their inventory was being confiscated by the Feds so I guess I was lucky to even get it back. I too would recommend the upper be returned. There is just too much good equipment available to have to worry if your barrel will shoot or not.
That is extremely useful info! And I am feeling better about returning it. I already emailed the dealer and he is sending a pickup label! That's pretty good service. I have never heard of "cracked lands" and not sure I would even recognize it, but there is definitely something going on in there. It would truly suck to hang on to the thing and have it deteriorate to a 2-3" gun after a few hundred rounds. Thanks for your report!
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As others have said- send it back. You will thank yourself later. Confidence in equipment is a big factor in developing your shooting skill.
You will forever wonder about the barrel unless you get it replaced....I would too. I would not hesitate to clean it up, and return it.
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