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+--- Thread: Help! (/showthread.php?tid=9332)
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Help! - MountainCur - 05-10-2015
So here I am thinking this Grendel is the baddest thing to hit my world since invading Iraq. I was wrong. I can not find a load to save my life. I have tried 6 different powders and 3 different bullets. I have gone through this machine thoroughly trying to find if there is some little thing preventing it from producing a repeatable group. I have switch scopes, breaks, and even tried no break. I can get a group(3/4 to an inch at best), always with a flier, though. I run back in the house re-zero my scale produce more test loads go back out and I have a 3-4" group. I've called gunsmiths and respected competitors looking for advice and I have scoured the internet for some inkling on what the hell I'm doing wrong. I have found, possibly, I got Saturned.
It is an 18" 1-8.75 twist stainless Saturn barrel. It seems they have a reputation for f'ing up grendels. My major problem now is I have a competition this next weekend. I was planning on using this Grendel for it. This comp has 3 parts. A tactical with regular carbines (I have that covered), a static LR course out to 1200 (I have that covered with my custom bolt rifle), and a dynamic LR course where you and your partner go out ! with a bolt rifle and the other with an semiauto (this is where the Grendel was going to come into play).
Yesterday I tried my wife's Mark 12 out to 8 and 900 and on my smaller steel targets it couldn't maintain. Its great to six, but it seems no further.
I need help. I can over night a brownell's 24" Grendel barrel and work my butt off to get it ready for this coming weekend or chance the Mark 12 or my buddies rack grade m1a, which shot a 3 inch group of m118 ammo at a hundred and as soon as it got warm it started wondering.
I'm out of options and quickly running out of time. Any useful advice would help.
Help! - 37L1 - 05-10-2015
I been lucky with a couple of AR platforms that others had given up on and ended up my way simply because they had over torqued the barrel nut or didn't torque it enough (needed shims).
One White Oak barrel in particular was way over torqued, backed it off and now that thing shoots tiny groups at 200.
You might want to check there as it is a simple and quick fix if that is your problem.
Help! - NugginFutz - 05-10-2015
Without knowing what other loads you tried, I can only toss out a couple that seem to work in most Grendels.
Since 900 yards was mentioned, I suggest trying 123 Amax/SST over 28.0 grains of 8208XBR. That is one I hear shooting as much as any other. Another possibility is approx 31 grains of CFE223 under the same pills.
If it won't shoot either of those, I suggest going to plan B, because your setup is more than likely in need of tweaking (upper receiver squaring, optics, etc.)
Help! - pds - 05-10-2015
MountainCur Wrote:So here I am thinking this Grendel is the baddest thing to hit my world since invading Iraq. I was wrong. I can not find a load to save my life. I have tried 6 different powders and 3 different bullets. I have gone through this machine thoroughly trying to find if there is some little thing preventing it from producing a repeatable group. I have switch scopes, breaks, and even tried no break. I can get a group(3/4 to an inch at best), always with a flier, though. I run back in the house re-zero my scale produce more test loads go back out and I have a 3-4" group. I've called gunsmiths and respected competitors looking for advice and I have scoured the internet for some inkling on what the hell I'm doing wrong. I have found, possibly, I got Saturned.
It is an 18" 1-8.75 twist stainless Saturn barrel. It seems they have a reputation for f'ing up grendels. My major problem now is I have a competition this next weekend. I was planning on using this Grendel for it. This comp has 3 parts. A tactical with regular carbines (I have that covered), a static LR course out to 1200 (I have that covered with my custom bolt rifle), and a dynamic LR course where you and your partner go out ! with a bolt rifle and the other with an semiauto (this is where the Grendel was going to come into play).
Yesterday I tried my wife's Mark 12 out to 8 and 900 and on my smaller steel targets it couldn't maintain. Its great to six, but it seems no further.
I need help. I can over night a brownell's 24" Grendel barrel and work my butt off to get it ready for this coming weekend or chance the Mark 12 or my buddies rack grade m1a, which shot a 3 inch group of m118 ammo at a hundred and as soon as it got warm it started wondering.
I'm out of options and quickly running out of time. Any useful advice would help.
Mountain,
We really need more info about your loads you've tried (powders, bullets and charge)?
pds
Help! - MountainCur - 05-10-2015
Powders:
8208 - in .5 increments from 25 - 28.5
CFE 223 - in .5 increments from 26.5 - 31.5
IMR 4198 - in .5 increments from 23 to 24
H322 - in .5 increments from 24.5 - 26.5
Ramshot TAC - in .5 increments from 24 - 27.5
X-terminator - .5 increments from 24 - 28
Bullets used 123 NCC, 123 Amax, 107 SMK
Primers used CCI 450 CCI BR-4 Rem 7 1/2 CCI 41
Brass used Lapua
I have ran through just trying to find a load near three hundred bullets. So to give you exact load data of each one would be a very big pain in the rear.
On the over torque/ under torque issue tried it. Trueing the receiver, done it. Switching scopes I've tried three different ones, from NF to Vortex Razor and Vortex PST.
I'm about to turn this barrel into a play thing for my lathe.
Anyone have info on the Brownell's barrel???
Help! - LR1955 - 05-10-2015
MountainCur Wrote:So here I am thinking this Grendel is the baddest thing to hit my world since invading Iraq. I was wrong. I can not find a load to save my life. I have tried 6 different powders and 3 different bullets. I have gone through this machine thoroughly trying to find if there is some little thing preventing it from producing a repeatable group. I have switch scopes, breaks, and even tried no break. I can get a group(3/4 to an inch at best), always with a flier, though. I run back in the house re-zero my scale produce more test loads go back out and I have a 3-4" group. I've called gunsmiths and respected competitors looking for advice and I have scoured the internet for some inkling on what the hell I'm doing wrong. I have found, possibly, I got Saturned.
It is an 18" 1-8.75 twist stainless Saturn barrel. It seems they have a reputation for f'ing up grendels. My major problem now is I have a competition this next weekend. I was planning on using this Grendel for it. This comp has 3 parts. A tactical with regular carbines (I have that covered), a static LR course out to 1200 (I have that covered with my custom bolt rifle), and a dynamic LR course where you and your partner go out ! with a bolt rifle and the other with an semiauto (this is where the Grendel was going to come into play).
Yesterday I tried my wife's Mark 12 out to 8 and 900 and on my smaller steel targets it couldn't maintain. Its great to six, but it seems no further.
I need help. I can over night a brownell's 24" Grendel barrel and work my butt off to get it ready for this coming weekend or chance the Mark 12 or my buddies rack grade m1a, which shot a 3 inch group of m118 ammo at a hundred and as soon as it got warm it started wondering.
I'm out of options and quickly running out of time. Any useful advice would help.
MC:
Most decent barrels will shoot about anything well. A minute or less, and pretty consistently.
Given what you have said, I bet the problem lies in the barrel.
How about measuring it to ensure it really is a 6.5mm and not a 7mm? Really.
And, that the barrel has been installed properly and is not moving around when it gets heated up or under recoil.
LR55
Help! - LR1955 - 05-10-2015
MountainCur Wrote:So here I am thinking this Grendel is the baddest thing to hit my world since invading Iraq. I was wrong. I can not find a load to save my life. I have tried 6 different powders and 3 different bullets. I have gone through this machine thoroughly trying to find if there is some little thing preventing it from producing a repeatable group. I have switch scopes, breaks, and even tried no break. I can get a group(3/4 to an inch at best), always with a flier, though. I run back in the house re-zero my scale produce more test loads go back out and I have a 3-4" group. I've called gunsmiths and respected competitors looking for advice and I have scoured the internet for some inkling on what the hell I'm doing wrong. I have found, possibly, I got Saturned.
It is an 18" 1-8.75 twist stainless Saturn barrel. It seems they have a reputation for f'ing up grendels. My major problem now is I have a competition this next weekend. I was planning on using this Grendel for it. This comp has 3 parts. A tactical with regular carbines (I have that covered), a static LR course out to 1200 (I have that covered with my custom bolt rifle), and a dynamic LR course where you and your partner go out ! with a bolt rifle and the other with an semiauto (this is where the Grendel was going to come into play).
Yesterday I tried my wife's Mark 12 out to 8 and 900 and on my smaller steel targets it couldn't maintain. Its great to six, but it seems no further.
I need help. I can over night a brownell's 24" Grendel barrel and work my butt off to get it ready for this coming weekend or chance the Mark 12 or my buddies rack grade m1a, which shot a 3 inch group of m118 ammo at a hundred and as soon as it got warm it started wondering.
I'm out of options and quickly running out of time. Any useful advice would help.
MC:
Most decent barrels will shoot about anything well. A minute or less, and pretty consistently.
Given what you have said, I bet the problem lies in the barrel.
How about measuring it to ensure it really is a 6.5mm and not a 7mm? Really.
And, that the barrel has been installed properly and is not moving around when it gets heated up or under recoil.
LR55
Help! - cory - 05-10-2015
Where are you testing? What's the layout? I've been having similar problems trying to work up loads at 200 yards. I think I know why after Friday's session now.
I was having a hell of a time at 200 getting the accuracy I expected. I was a little annoyed, so for s**ts and giggles I thought I'd throw some Hornady Factory loads to the 300 yard line and the 500 yard line, all on steel. At both, they had a set of steel plates hanging, the kind that start with a large one and progressively get to a small moa target. (I should have taken a picture! :/)
At 300 I was doing well to hit the 2nd largest target.
At 500, 3 mils up, I checked my zero on the steel silhoutte. I dialed in at .3 mils right. At this point I went straight across the steel plates, hitting dead center, some multiple times, up until I missed the last one. Now I know this rifle is a shooter.
The way this range is set up, you can shoot 100yards, 200 yds, 300 yds, & 500 yds all from one bench, all with 15"-20" mounds of dirt. It's a 100 yd mound, with open field behind it, to the far left. The 500 yard mound off sets it to the right with a thick tree line behind it. The 300 yd mound off sets it with open field behind it. And the 200 yd mount off sets it with open field behind it. There's normally a wind coming right at the bench veering off to one direction or the other.
What I suspect is happening, is that there's wind coming over the top of the mound and is extremely turbulent as it comes down the mound. I think that tree line is preventing the wind from being disruptive at the 500 yd mound.
I had been convinced it was me, with a 20% chance something wasn't installed correctly. My last session there I was talking to a shooter that had described getting unpredictable results at the 200 yd and 300 yd points on several occasions. This and my results at 500 yd mound, leads me to the above conclusion of turbulence.
I say all that to say try shooting at a different location.
Help! - MountainCur - 05-10-2015
I just measured the barrel and it is 6.5 at the muzzle. It's cold bore shot is always 2" high and an inch left. After that it settles down into a pattern that is different every time. Barrel has been installed properly.
Shooting location- Wheat field in Northern Montana. I have been lucky in having some non windy weekends for load testing. So turbulence is nill. I've actually even changed my shooting spot here at the farm just on the off chance of it maybe being that. It wasn't.
Anybody want an SBR Barrel? I'll cut this as short as you want. Hell we can make it 2 inches if you want. I will ship for free! 9 little two inch pieces of Saturn barrel.
Help! - cory - 05-10-2015
Where did you get the barrel? If you got it straight from Satern, I'd send it back for a refund.
If funds permit, I'd suggest contacting Dan Lilja. If he has any in stock he should be able to get one to you within 24 hrs, no problem.
Help! - VASCAR2 - 05-10-2015
From all reports Brownell's barrel are probably made by Liberty/ Saturn but Brownell's will not disclose their source. Another reason Liberty/Saturn is suspected because the barrels are marked Grendel II which is not the SAAMI chamber.
Help! - NugginFutz - 05-10-2015
VASCAR2 Wrote:From all reports Brownell's barrel are probably made by Liberty/ Saturn but Brownell's will not disclose their source. Another reason Liberty/Saturn is suspected because the barrels are marked Grendel II which is not the SAAMI chamber.
I think it's now a foregone conclusion that the Brownell barrels are Satern. I'd emailed Brownells about the chamber, before they actually ID'd it as Grendel II on their website. Without telling me who the vendor was, Brownells forwarded a response from the manufacturer which not only paraphrased what Satern had originally said about the chamber being SAAMI because Go/NoGo gauges worked, but also directed me to a website the manufacturer considered to be the best source of information on the Grendel. That website happens to belong to the same ex-member who's been carrying Satern's water for the last year or so.
In short, if avoiding another Grendel II from Satern is the OP's intent, Brownells cannot help him.
Help! - MountainCur - 05-10-2015
NugginFutz Wrote:I think it's now a foregone conclusion that the Brownell barrels are Satern. I'd emailed Brownells about the chamber, before they actually ID'd it as Grendel II on their website. Without telling me who the vendor was, Brownells forwarded a response from the manufacturer which not only paraphrased what Satern had originally said about the chamber being SAAMI because Go/NoGo gauges worked, but also directed me to a website the manufacturer considered to be the best source of information on the Grendel. That website happens to belong to the same ex-member who's been carrying Satern's water for the last year or so.
In short, if avoiding another Grendel II from Satern is the OP's intent, Brownells cannot help him.
That, Sir, is what I was afraid of. I said lots of cuss words a few minutes ago upon reading it. I had suspected that what brownell's sells is Saturn/ liberty since they are so close. Crap. And I got the barrel from a private seller of the arf. he gave me the receipt from Saturn when I bought it. I think I'm in a bind. I had eventually thought about getting a 24 inch Benjamin barrel out of Washington, since I've shot with him and shot a rfile of his which was absolutely outstanding. My other thought was Lilja since I am Montana Proud and he does make a fine product.
Oh, fudge-cicles!!!
Help! - NugginFutz - 05-10-2015
MountainCur Wrote:That, Sir, is what I was afraid of. I said lots of cuss words a few minutes ago upon reading it. I had suspected that what brownell's sells is Saturn/ liberty since they are so close. Crap. And I got the barrel from a private seller of the arf. he gave me the receipt from Saturn when I bought it. I think I'm in a bind. I had eventually thought about getting a 24 inch Benjamin barrel out of Washington, since I've shot with him and shot a rfile of his which was absolutely outstanding. My other thought was Lilja since I am Montana Proud and he does make a fine product.
Oh, fudge-cicles!!!
All may not be lost, MC. Looking past some of the grief that several (understandably) have with Satern, it has been observed that some of the Liberty GeeToo barrels can shoot well. Brownell's also has a good reputation for customer service, so if you decide to roll the dice and take a chance on another Liberty, you could send it back for performance issues (or so I've been told). Unless someone on the board is aware of another ready to go barrel which can be overnighted to you, I don't see much more in the way of options.
Help! - LR1955 - 05-10-2015
MountainCur Wrote:That, Sir, is what I was afraid of. I said lots of cuss words a few minutes ago upon reading it. I had suspected that what brownell's sells is Saturn/ liberty since they are so close. Crap. And I got the barrel from a private seller of the arf. he gave me the receipt from Saturn when I bought it. I think I'm in a bind. I had eventually thought about getting a 24 inch Benjamin barrel out of Washington, since I've shot with him and shot a rfile of his which was absolutely outstanding. My other thought was Lilja since I am Montana Proud and he does make a fine product.
Oh, fudge-cicles!!!
MC:
See if Lilja has one. If not, try Lothar Walther.
Or call Mark at Precision and see if he has something.
LR55
Help! - cory - 05-10-2015
Good call LR1955. I first thought about Mark, but didn't think he could meet MC's time frame. Mark might have something setting around he could set you up with on short notice in exchange for you supporting the Precision Firearm's name at your competition.
Help! - Klem - 05-11-2015
My 2 cents worth. Assuming competence, I've always thought the bulk of a firearms accuracy is in the barrel. It may just be that one barrel. Tempting to throw out the baby out with the bathwater I know (the whole calibre if this is your first barrel) but the fix might be as simple as swapping out the barrel.
No doubt you know your stuff in every other department; shooting, loading and assembling so my money is on a dud barrel.
Help! - MountainCur - 05-11-2015
Thank you, gentleman. Those are good suggestions. I'll let you guys know how it turned out. If you think of something in the meatime, let me know.
Thanks!
Help! - COTNTOP - 05-11-2015
I have the same barrel and it shot tight and the next time POI would move. Saw where LR55 said the 6.5G might need a little more torque. Changed handguard, bedded barrel and torqued to 70lbs and it now shoots really well. Changed optics which may have played a roll in improving accuracy, also went to heavier buffer. Now brass has no damage and is ejected at 90 degree. I think the barrelnut was culprit.
Help! - LRRPF52 - 05-12-2015
The Satern barrels with a SAAMI chamber typically shoot very well, some exceeding what many bolt guns would do on a rare day.
I know several of us have had a hard time getting some of the longer throat barrels to shoot well, and end up chasing our tails like you did.