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+--- Thread: 6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? (/showthread.php?tid=8718)
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-12-2014
I know its been discussed, ive searched, but all the threads were jibberish and no one really seemed to have an answer at the beginning of the year...
what is this grendel II chambering for? From what i understamd it does not work correctly with regular grendel ammunition...?
Can someone or a few set me straight with correct info please?
Main reason i ask is im slowly building a "on the cheap" a grendel for my uncle... and came across those AR stoner barrels from midway made by satern....
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - SHORT-N-SASSY - 12-12-2014
[size="3"]Try this Thread (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?8330-Grendel-II-chamber).
[/SIZE]
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-12-2014
SHORT-N-SASSY Wrote:[size="3"]Try this Thread (http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?8330-Grendel-II-chamber).
[/SIZE]
Ive already seen that thread.... its what i called jibberish and talk... im looking more for just an easy simple conclusion here from everyone has finally figured out about it...
more along the lines of: "just dont do it, stay away from it", or "its made for these kind of bullets so they are closer to the lands", or " it does not work correctly with regular redding grendel dies", etc etc....
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-12-2014
I dont know what a "compound throat" is....
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - am4966 - 12-12-2014
Grendel II has to do with the bolt, and I believe the Grendel II chambers are 264lbc which will fire factory ammo. Someone will be along to clarify things better than me.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - jurassic - 12-12-2014
am4966 Wrote:Grendel II has to do with the bolt, and I believe the Grendel II chambers are 264lbc which will fire factory ammo. Someone will be along to clarify things better than me.
I believe he is talking about the chamber not the bolt. Sniper338, keep looking there have been numerous discussions about the different chambers that will fire Grendel factory ammo. In a nutshell, the chamber of Liberty/AR-Stoner barrels was changed by the manufacturer after barrels did meet specifications of the saami spec. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong there have been numerous threads about the differences.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-12-2014
Its sounding more like its better to just stay away from it all together...
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - cory - 12-12-2014
Sniper338 Wrote:I know its been discussed, ive searched, but all the threads were jibberish and no one really seemed to have an answer at the beginning of the year...
what is this grendel II chambering for? From what i understamd it does not work correctly with regular grendel ammunition...?
Can someone or a few set me straight with correct info please?
Main reason i ask is im slowly building a "on the cheap" a grendel for my uncle... and came across those AR stoner barrels from midway made by satern....
The "Grendel II" chamber was nothing more than a cover your ass exercise by the company you should have seen mentioned in the "jiberish". That company put out a lot of economy barrels with short throats, did not meet the SAAMI spec, that were potentially catastrophically hazardous to the shooter. Rather than admitting their mistake, recalling the barrels and replacing them, they took the stance that they were within spec and the problem was the design of the Grendel Chamber. However, they were going to take the "higher" ground and offer to ream out your chamber to a "better" chamber. There's a lot of bad blood between AA and Satern that explains some of this.
The "Grendel II" is actually one of the many chambers Bill A. experimented with until he settled on the Grendel chamber with the compound throat for best accuracy through a wide range of bullets.
The compound throat is a design solution that is unique to the Grendel. I maybe mistaking about it being unique, but at most it's rare. It has shown to be extremely effectiver. However, reamer makers sometimes hate it because it makes their jobs more difficult.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-12-2014
cory Wrote:The "Grendel II" chamber was nothing more than a cover your ass exercise by the company you should have seen mentioned in the "jiberish". That company put out a lot of economy barrels with short throats, did not meet the SAAMI spec, that were potentially catastrophically hazardous to the shooter. Rather than admitting their mistake, recalling the barrels and replacing them, they took the stance that they were within spec and the problem was the design of the Grendel Chamber. However, they were going to take the "higher" ground and offer to ream out your chamber to a "better" chamber. There's a lot of bad blood between AA and Satern that explains some of this.
The "Grendel II" is actually one of the many chambers Bill A. experimented with until he settled on the Grendel chamber with the compound throat for best accuracy through a wide range of bullets.
The compound throat is a design solution that is unique to the Grendel. I maybe mistaking about it being unique, but at most it's rare. It has shown to be extremely effectiver. However, reamer makers sometimes hate it because it makes their jobs more difficult.
sounds good. Stay away from it is what i understand. Thats what i was basically understanding, just wanted a good straight shooter answer...
it suprises me that satern would do that because i run satern barrel i had custom made and its flawless and shoots amazing.... on the other hand i am starting to get quite fed up with satern now days because their service absolutely sucks. No one answers their phones, they were a year out wait 4 years ago so i would hate to see their production now...
Its my opinion, but it sounds like they took on too much teaming up with midway to make mass quantities of barrels for as small of a shop as they are... quality went down the toilet trying to make more barrels faster...
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - VASCAR2 - 12-12-2014
The compound throat helps accept a wider variety of different shape bullets in an effort to center the bullet into the barrel. The 264 LBC chamber was designed to shoot the 123 grain Sierra Match King best. AR Stoner/Liberty sold a large number of out of spec 6.5 Grendel chambered barrels. They could not re cut the compound throat into their previously short chambered barrels. Liberty basically changed to the Grendel II chamber as a fix for their short out of spec compound throat 6.5 Grendel barrels. Liberty basically lengthened the free bore so their 6.5 barrels can supposedly shoot long heavy bullets accurately (like 140 grain or heavier). Basically this a marketing strategy to cover their previous mistake. I really think the Grendel II chamber is cheaper and easier to machine with less chance of barrels not functioning. Since the 6.5 Grendel is industry standard it has to conform to Alexander Arms chamber design to be marked 6.5 Grendel.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - PigOPs - 12-12-2014
To answer one of your questions: the Grendel II will shoot factory ammo fine. In fact, there will probably be loads that shoot great in it. It just will most likely not be as versatile across a range of weights and shapes of projectiles. The compound throat was designed to align a variety of projectiles to the freebore. Hopefully some of that makes sense.
Personally if I were to choose a traditional (non-compound) throat I would go with .264lbc because it's neck dimension is tighter which should in theory aid accuracy. However, I reload so I can Taylor a load to a barrel.
Vascar- beat me to it
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - jurassic - 12-12-2014
As you can see there is a lot of emotion associated with this debacle. Everyone has opinions and the facts are what they are, with that said, I would still love to shoot something made by Satern.
This forum has all the info you will need to make a decision on your own. Lilja has proven to be an excellent choice for many of us lately!
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-12-2014
10-4 its a no go for sure... better to just stay away from it... the only reason it spiked my curiosity was because of the price of ar stoner barrela at midway...
Me personally, id never EVER buy a cheap end barrel... i like to pay for quality because im a freak when it comes to how i want my personal guns to shoot...
i just needed the info to be informed for future stuff...
thank you all for the info! Im good to go now.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - JASmith - 12-12-2014
[INDENT][/INDENT]
Sniper338 Wrote:I dont know what a "compound throat" is....The debate has been largely fueled by actors who don't want to or can't cut a reamer to the SAAMI specification and are able to justify the reticence by indicating that the standard throat produces 'better accuracy' on the bench. The claim being true for some bullet designs obscures the true value of the SAAMI-spec chamber's ability to generate excellent accuracy over the full range of 6.5 caliber bullet weights.
Most chambers have a constant diameter freebore followed by a tapered section taking the the throat down to bore diameter.
[INDENT]This works well most of the time provided the freebore is kept short enough that one can seat the bullet close to the start of the tapered section (also start of the lands).
This arrangement gives the best accuracy possible out of a barrel for bolt action and single shot rifles PROVIDED that the seating depth is adjusted correctly and that all other precision hand loading techniques are used.
[/INDENT]
The AR15 magazine constrains the cartridge length to 2.260" per the SAAMI specification. The result is excessive jump for some bullets. Bill Alexander and the team he worked with noted that some of the military rifles with reputations for excellent accuracy had an ~0.5 degree taper. They also noted that a taper of about 1.5 degrees would result in better and more consistent pressure build up for the 50,000 psi regime the Grendel operates in.
This dilemma was resolved by introducing a short 0.5 degree taper where the freeborn normally exists, followed by the conventional 1.5 degree taper.. The two tapered sections create a "compound throat" and answers the question posed in the quote.
Comparing conventionally throated chambers like the GII and .264 LBC with the 6.5 Grendel, one can readily infer that some bullets will have extraordinarily fine accuracy in the variants, but that some bullets won't shoot as well. The 6.5 Grendel, however, shows excellent accuracy throughout the range of bullets available for the 6.5 caliber even though the variants will do better for some bullets.
Regarding which is better, most shooters won't see a difference whine the bullet design is in the class targeted by the variant throat. Many, if not most, will find the SAAMI spec chamber shoots better across the board.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Sniper338 - 12-12-2014
Perfect explaination^^^^^^^ Thank you for that! Understood completely!!
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Grunt4Life - 12-13-2014
I am new to the Grendel caliber as well. In fact, I just completed my build today with a Lilja barrel. While digging through the posts and all of the debates, I became more and more confused and never really could arrive at a warm and fuzzy about the Grendel II. Thankfully LR 52 provided some good information and got me on the right track.
I guess the reason everyone who is new to the forum keeps asking this question is because we really don't know. I joined this forum because I had never built my own AR before and decided to go with the Grendel. I felt the knowledge and experience of this group would guide me in the right direction and reduce mistakes I would make. Like the OP, I read all of the threads concerning the GII and walked away scratching my head. I am well versed in the whole Satern barrel issue and understand the chamber difference, but I have no idea what it all means to a run of the mill recreational shooter.
I don't shoot competition. I plink at the range and have been looking for something to engage targets effectively at the 750 yard line. I am now hooked on hog hunting after my first trip to Texas to do so in September. I am planning a trip to Wyoming for a DIY speed goat hunt next fall and am awaiting Indiana to approve rifle hunting whitetail. With all of that in mind, I blew off the GII and went with the Lilya because of quality and reputation.
Now, my father-in-law is build a Grendal as well, but doesn't have the expendable cash since he is retired and wants to stay that way. He will be doing the same shooting I do and is in the barrel debate now. Bottom line is, there is great information for greenhorn Grendel builders here on how the GII came to be, but no information as to how it performs, what the actual functional issues are, or who the barrel would be suited for. I saw a thread that was started and was suppose to track performance, but it was moved to a different location and then turned into a debate about the Satern issue again. Never saw data unless I missed it.
I don't know. Is the stance of the forum that the GII is junk? I understand that it's not SAAMI spec and it won't shoot all bullets as well as the Grendel chamber. Is it a suitable barrel that a recreational shooter can plink with and hunt?
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - Blacklab - 12-13-2014
JAsmith, you explained that so well I even understand it. thank you wink
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - lamrith - 12-13-2014
So my ultra quick summary/take away is that:
Saami 6.5G will shoot all 6.5 bullets well?
The Variants like GII may shoot some bullets better than the Saami chamber does, and others not as well?
To my knowledge the current variants do not have an issue with regards to safety of factory loads? Of course Handloads all bets are off for safety just like in any firearm, it comes down to the reloader and how they make the rounds.
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - JASmith - 12-13-2014
lamrith Wrote:So my ultra quick summary/take away is that:RE: First paragraph, that is what I took away from the debates of last spring after filtering through the baiting and emotion.
Saami 6.5G will shoot all 6.5 bullets well?
The Variants like GII may shoot some bullets better than the Saami chamber does, and others not as well?
To my knowledge the current variants do not have an issue with regards to safety of factory loads? Of course Handloads all bets are off for safety just like in any firearm, it comes down to the reloader and how they make the rounds.
Regarding curret variants, there haven't been many recent reports of safety issues. On the other hand, if you read through the Satern barrel discussions, you will know that a few folks have detected signs of unusual pressure in some barrels where the throat is shorter or tighter than the SAAMI specification. The point is that the odd out-of spec item can and does slip through even the best quality control regimes. This means that a blanket observation that none have safety issues might be an overstatement regardless of the cartridge in play (Grendel, .223, .308, etc.).
6.5 Grendel II ~vs~ regular grendel.....? - am4966 - 12-13-2014
If I was going to buy a barrel and money is a concern I'd do 2 things. 1. Contact Mark at Precision Firearms to see if they have a lower end barrel bolt it'll be Saami 2. Buy a barrel from Black Hole Weaponry for one of the .264lbc barrel with a type 2 bolt barrels $250.00 range and it'll shoot the 123 grain stuff great probably others too I'm not sure about the heavies.