+- 6.5 Grendel Forum (https://65grendel.com)
+-- Forum: 6.5 GRENDEL DISCUSSION FORUMS (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: 6.5 Grendel Build-It-Yourself & Custom Builds (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: First AR build - range day (/showthread.php?tid=7643)
Pages:
1
2
First AR build - range day - poli - 04-01-2014
Yesterday I took my newly built Grendel to the range and shot 60 Hornady 123 gr. SST factory loads. The barrel is a Shilen 20" HBAR 1/9 twist. The first 3-shot group (0.420") was one of the best and I was very happy, but from there on it didn't go too well. These are my best 5-shot groups:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5011[/ATTACH]
All in all I would say that I shot about 1.5 MOA groups. Honestly, I was expecting to do much better, but I believe the military trigger that came with my DPMS lower kit had something to do with it. The only mod I made to the trigger was to change the spring with a softer one, but even that wasn't enough.
I had another box of 20 rounds but since I was a bit disappointed, I pulled out my other rifle that I took with me and shot several 5 round groups. And just to add insult to injury, my second 5-shot group looked like this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5010[/ATTACH]
This was the best group out of all groups shot with this rifle which happens to have a Timney trigger, and I think would be very difficult to replicate it in the future with the same type of ammo.
What would you recommend for a target/hunting trigger for my AR?
By the way, the rifle that I shot that crazy 4+1 group is a sporterized 1930 Mosin Nagant and the ammo used was 147 gr. surplus... The fifth shot was the one that opened up the group; I should've stopped after 4 shots
First AR build - range day - LRRPF52 - 04-01-2014
What optic mount and scope are you using?
Did you use a square receiver face, and bed the barrel extension into the upper receiver? What about the gas block?
It's harder to shoot groups with a standard trigger, unless you polish the trigger nose and hammer notch engagement.
Heavy barrels need to be bedded in the AR15 receiver, unless you use a temp-fit.
First AR build - range day - Ridgerider - 04-01-2014
LRRPF52 Wrote:What optic mount and scope are you using?
Did you use a square receiver face, and bed the barrel extension into the upper receiver? What about the gas block?
It's harder to shoot groups with a standard trigger, unless you polish the trigger nose and hammer notch engagement.
Heavy barrels need to be bedded in the AR15 receiver, unless you use a temp-fit.
No way should you polish the hammer notch and trigger nose (Sear) lap yes, polish no unless you want to ruin the trigger all together. Seen so many home wanabee gun smiths ruin a trigger because of what you describe. Thats why Midway and Brownells sell a jig to square and lap the trigger and hammer for correct angles and engagement.
First AR build - range day - LRRPF52 - 04-01-2014
Ridgerider Wrote:No way should you polish the hammer notch and trigger nose (Sear) lap yes, polish no unless you want to ruin the trigger all together. Seen so many home wanabee gun smiths ruin a trigger because of what you describe. Thats why Midway and Brownells sell a jig to square and lap the trigger and hammer for correct angles and engagement.
I'm not talking about changing the angle of the nose or even messing with it, but the flat surfaces only, to remove the tooling marks. If you polish the edge of the nose, you're looking at a potentially hazardous configuration. The hammer notch is the most difficult area to work on, which is why we stone it.
If one takes a polishing wheel to it and goes to town, thinking they are polisherin' her up real nice, and ends up with a rounded trigger nose, it's a bad thing.
Following the advice and mentoring of very respectable gunsmiths, I have performed the work on my triggers, and ended up with much improved trigger feel, with a long-lasting trigger that has never resulted in failures, doubles, etc. The first one I ever did was on one of my 3-gun carbines, and I took that gun to over 10,000 rounds of high volume fire before breaking my bolt at the cam pin hole. The trigger never malf'd on me because I did exactly what you describe, and didn't change the angle of the surfaces.
I've done it on several triggers over the years with successful results. I have also seen a few people bugger up triggers, mostly on 1911's though. Some factory 2-stage triggers are non-functional in the AR15 and AR10, and need to be looked at by a competent thinker, regardless of what is next to their name, or what training they slipped through for the cost of admission.
First AR build - range day - poli - 04-01-2014
I have a LaRue Tactical SPR/M4 QD LT104 mount and a Hawke Sidewinder 30 Tactical SF 6.5-20x42 scope which has a very fine reticle. Prior to installing the barrel I lapped the upper with the lapping tool but I didn't bed the barrel extension into the receiver. The upper and lower are Aero Precision and I have a Daniel Defense Low Profile Gas Block Clamp-On. I also have a Midwest Industries Gen 2 SS-Series Free Float Modular Rail Handguard.
I polished/lapped the trigger and hammer very gently with a buffing wheel and Mothers but while shooting I felt it was still grinding very little - I might've not done it enough.
I used a torque wrench for the barrel nut and it just happened that at 30lb torque one of the cutouts lined up perfectly with the gas tube, so I didn't tighten it up more; I don't know if this has any effect at all.
Do I bed the barrel using blue locktide?
First AR build - range day - LRRPF52 - 04-01-2014
With that heavy of a barrel, and over 18" length, it makes sense to bed it. How did the extension slip into the upper? Was it loose, snug, tight? 30ft-lbs is on the light side for the Grendel. Try using anti-sieze on the threads, and set the tennon by backing off, then torquing repeatedly until you get to 60ft-lbs if you can.
On the handguard, use an inch-lb torque driver to make sure the clamping force of the handguard is even, and not substantial for the MI SS Gen II. There has been some discussion lately about accuracy and clamp-style handguard mounting interfaces on the barrel nut.
Yes, Blue Loc-tite is one way of bedding it into the upper receiver tunnel. Since you have a clamp-on gas block, just use equal torque on the fasteners (inch pounds).
Do the same thing for the scope rings, setting them to equal torque specs. Wheeler recommends 15-20 inch pounds.
Use a nice, solid rest, with rear bag. The AR15 requires some driving as opposed to free-recoiling like a bolt gun. Steady, firm pressure to the rear with the 3 remaining digits of your firing hand with straight pressure of the butt into your shoulder will help keep the gun tamed. If you're already well-versed in this, forgive my unsolicited remarks. If I really want to shoot groups and accuracy-test a rifle (something I have done professionally for a manufacturer day after day after day, from 0900-1700) I make sure I'm well hydrated, in a very calm mood, and I set up the position with the target in focus so that the natural point of aim of my entire bench position is directed through the center of the target.
Once I'm set up, ammo is on-hand, the gun is cradled or on bags/bipod, I get behind the gun and literally go to sleep on it, but thinking clearly in my mind what a good sight picture looks like. I then open my eyes, and settle the gun into the position by simulating recoil. Once I have a comfortable position that doesn't deviate from the NPOA, I begin my dry-fire drills until called shots are within maybe 1.5" of movement on a 100yd target, no more. I get my warm and fuzzy about the position, and then go live.
Once I do all this, I actually shoot fairly quickly, because there is no need to find the NPOA. It's already established, and the sooner I break the shot on consistent sight picture after sight picture, the better off I am.
First AR build - range day - Buster - 04-01-2014
Just keep shooting it.
Then shoot it some more.
The more you shoot it, the more comfortable you'll get with it, and the more likely it will "come into it's own".
After about 500 rounds, post your results.
First AR build - range day - Ridgerider - 04-01-2014
LRRPF52 Wrote:I'm not talking about changing the angle of the nose or even messing with it, but the flat surfaces only, to remove the tooling marks. If you polish the edge of the nose, you're looking at a potentially hazardous configuration. The hammer notch is the most difficult area to work on, which is why we stone it.
If one takes a polishing wheel to it and goes to town, thinking they are polisherin' her up real nice, and ends up with a rounded trigger nose, it's a bad thing.
Following the advice and mentoring of very respectable gunsmiths, I have performed the work on my triggers, and ended up with much improved trigger feel, with a long-lasting trigger that has never resulted in failures, doubles, etc. The first one I ever did was on one of my 3-gun carbines, and I took that gun to over 10,000 rounds of high volume fire before breaking my bolt at the cam pin hole. The trigger never malf'd on me because I did exactly what you describe, and didn't change the angle of the surfaces.
I've done it on several triggers over the years with successful results. I have also seen a few people bugger up triggers, mostly on 1911's though. Some factory 2-stage triggers are non-functional in the AR15 and AR10, and need to be looked at by a competent thinker, regardless of what is next to their name, or what training they slipped through for the cost of admission.
You may not be but to say what you said some people may take a buffing wheel to their triggers and screw them up. The angles have to be maintained and any home trigger jobber needs to understand that.
First AR build - range day - poli - 04-01-2014
LRRPF52 Wrote:With that heavy of a barrel, and over 18" length, it makes sense to bed it. How did the extension slip into the upper? Was it loose, snug, tight? 30ft-lbs is on the light side for the Grendel. Try using anti-sieze on the threads, and set the tennon by backing off, then torquing repeatedly until you get to 60ft-lbs if you can.
The barrel was snug and I used anti-size grease on the thread. I tighten it up and loosened it few times as per instructions but I will do it again and try to get it closer to 60lb.
LRRPF52 Wrote:On the handguard, use an inch-lb torque driver to make sure the clamping force of the handguard is even, and not substantial for the MI SS Gen II. There has been some discussion lately about accuracy and clamp-style handguard mounting interfaces on the barrel nut.
Yes, Blue Loc-tite is one way of bedding it into the upper receiver tunnel. Since you have a clamp-on gas block, just use equal torque on the fasteners (inch pounds).
Do the same thing for the scope rings, setting them to equal torque specs. Wheeler recommends 15-20 inch pounds.
I didn't have a inch-lb torque driver, so I did it by hand, but I'll look into getting one.
LRRPF52 Wrote:If you're already well-versed in this, forgive my unsolicited remarks.
I always keep an open mind and appreciate when someone wants to help, especially when giving valuable advice - thank you! I've been shooting for years bolt rifles and I'm getting consistently 1/2" - 3/4" groups from my 22-250 and 308 rifles. I have a 556 Sig, but I'm not shooting it from the bench, so the advice on driving the AR will definitely help.
First AR build - range day - poli - 04-01-2014
Buster Wrote:Just keep shooting it.
Then shoot it some more.
The more you shoot it, the more comfortable you'll get with it, and the more likely it will "come into it's own".
After about 500 rounds, post your results.
That's exactly what I intend to do
. This cartridge/rifle combo is awesome!
First AR build - range day - Tedward - 04-01-2014
I would recommend buying a already "Tuned Trigger" or send a run of the mill trigger to someone who knows what there doing and has some experience. It's not expensive either. http://www.triggerwork.net/index.html
It can be easier sometimes to have a trigger guy do the very important work because reading a forum is not hands on experience.
I like Busters response, go shoot it and see how you do in a week or so. Pick it up and shoot. Get up move around and shoot more. Keep doing that and you will find a reset position you go to. Meditation and shooting is not how you will be when your hunting. I think deep meditation is best for the Karate Kid. I saw it on a movie.
First AR build - range day - Ridgerider - 04-01-2014
I'd like shooting rifles and shooting anything else from 9-5 5 days a weeks and getting paid for it. But Tedward isnt meditation like dreaming and that the big buck you shot was really a Jackaroo.
First AR build - range day - Buster - 04-02-2014
poli Wrote:That's exactly what I intend to do
I agree....finally found my post from almost a year a go:
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?2629-Starting-the-Build&p=61189&viewfull=1#post61189
After 500 rounds, nickel sized group @ 200 yards
First AR build - range day - NugginFutz - 04-02-2014
Tedward Wrote:I like Busters response, go shoot it and see how you do in a week or so. Pick it up and shoot. Get up move around and shoot more. Keep doing that and you will find a reset position you go to. Meditation and shooting is not how you will be when your hunting. I think deep meditation is best for the Karate Kid. I saw it on a movie.
Let me know how that works for you, Ted. Any pics of your long range groups would be appreciated. That was, I believe, what LRRPF52 was talking about improving, wasn't it? Not hunting.
First AR build - range day - poli - 04-02-2014
Tedward Wrote:I think the topic was first day at the range and the ranges I've been to there really isn't time for napping and such deep thoughts. I guess I didn't know he was long range shooting on his brake in.
In fact the topic was "first AR build" as in first AR that I've ever built which I took to the range for shooting. As far as days at the range, I've had quite a few of those but I don't want to think about when I started and how many days have been because it reminds me how old I am
.My post primarily was about being a bit disappointed with the groups and asking for advice on trigger. Thanks for the recommendation - I'll look into TriggerWork.
First AR build - range day - Tedward - 04-02-2014
poli Wrote:My post primarily was about being a bit disappointed with the groups and asking for advice on trigger. Thanks for the recommendation - I'll look into TriggerWork.I have had 2 done by him and for the money they are really a good deal. I tried the sping deal with some light weight JP Trigger Springs and that got me into trouble when I went to use the same lower on my .223 Wylde. Lite primer strikes, speed hammers and so on. So I called the trigger guy, issue resolved and did 2 triggers since I was shipping and it would cost the same there and back. Both are very crisp.
First AR build - range day - NugginFutz - 04-02-2014
Tedward Wrote:Long Range is what he was talking about?
I don't think he was talking about long range.
Sorry for interfearing with your thread poli...But the Rocky Mountain Squad doesn't like it if you talk about someone in there region.
All the same, Ted - let me know how your groups are doing. Please. My reading deficiencies aside, LRRPF52 was offering some pretty sound advice on natural Point of Aim. Useful information for anyone serious about shooting respectable groups. Condemning a technique only because you disagree with the messenger is folly.
First AR build - range day - LRRPF52 - 04-02-2014
I deleted several of the posts in this thread for having nothing to do with the OP, and not conforming to a family-friendly forum. Somehow it deviated into inappropriate topics that don't convey the level of maturity that one would expect from adults.
If anybody is wondering about what I do when shooting for groups, I have described it before. "Going to sleep on the gun" means regulating your natural body functions to a slower pace so that there is less opportunity for your circulatory and nervous systems to impart shooter error onto the gun. Olympic shooters will practice on a heart monitor if you have any doubts about the science behind it, but it's an approach that helps me shoot groups better.
If you disagree with it, don't like, think it's unsound, make an intelligent case with supporting information, and drive on. We're not going to have a forum where grown men act like children and devolve into nonsensical discussions that have nothing to do with the OP.
If you have advice on how to help the OP improve his groups, and you have experience making accurate rifles, or ringing out accuracy potential from rifles with proven techniques, now would be a good time to share those experiences. That's what the forum is for, to help fellow shooters out.
First AR build - range day - poli - 04-02-2014
Buying a trigger from TriggerWorks will cost about $45; on the other hand, a Geissele SSA-E (which I've noticed many forum members own) sells for $230 at Midway. My question: is the Geissele trigger so much better than the one customized by an experienced gunsmith to justify the difference in price? We're looking at a trigger that is 5 times more expensive! Like everything else, there is a price/value ratio and many times this is inflated by factors other than the features of the product (I also know that value is "in the eyes of the beholder"). Is there anything else in between these two extremes that might work? My final goal is to get a trigger that is light and crisp for target shooting but that could also work in hunting situations.
First AR build - range day - LRRPF52 - 04-02-2014
For the type of trigger you're talking about, looking at the hunting aspect, will you ever be wearing gloves, and how thick will the trigger finger pad be on those gloves when shooting in the Winter? Reason I ask is that it is a big consideration for us when I go hunting in Finland in the winter. To get around that, if we're hunting from a static position, my Finn friends use thick shooting mats and sleeping bags to stay warm in the arctic conditions.
When I used that technique, I was able to actually leave my gloves entirely off for the beginning of the evening, then as temps dropped, I donned my Nomex and hunter's mittens.
A standard trigger polished will significantly improve the trigger feel to a point where you might not see a difference on the target between it and one of the higher end triggers, but the Geissele's allow you to ring accuracy potential out of the AR15 with less physical and mental effort, and in a faster fundamentals sequence.
The Geissele will also keep its surfaces longer than a standard trigger will, because of the materials and methods Geissele uses. This really caters to the hi-power shooter and shooter who is spending a lot of time on the range burning through thousands of rounds in a season to stay competitive. You get a very long-lasting, super crisp break trigger from Geissele, with a full power hammer spring that won't light strike your primers, especially in colder temps.
For what you describe as your main intent, you would be ok with the trigger job, or step up to a JP single stage trigger with set screw adjustments for the initial take up and overtravel. I have all 3 types of triggers discussed herein, as well as a tuned Rock River 2-stage. I have:
Geissele SSA in my .260 Rem AR10
JP Single Stage tuned and installed by me in my 16" Grendel
RRA Tuned ( I think by Bill Springfield, or another go-to guy for hi-power. )
Several poor man's trigger jobs I have done myself on my beater guns.
I prefer the top 3 triggers, and like different ones for different things. I polish the face of every rack-grade trigger, without changing the angle or screwing with the edge of the trigger nose just as a general approach to doing work on the fire control group for the AR15. Nobody likes gritty tool marks on their trigger-to-hammer engagement.