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Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - NugginFutz - 02-16-2014
Some time ago, I bought an app (BAE) for my phone and tablet to help me work out ballistic solutions. It turned out to be very good, and performed much better than I expected.
Today, I had the chance to put it through the paces at a variety of distances. I learned quite a bit, from today's experience.
First, in my defense, the recent weather has kept me from entertaining the idea of shooting for the last 6-8 weeks, so my skills we're beginning to get rusty. Today, though, brought 70' weather, and nearly calm winds! I wasted no time.
Eagerly, I drove out and set up my steel plate. I started at 500. Selecting the load for my .264 LBC, I attempted to get BAE to load the current conditions. After a few moments, I was informed that there was no data connection.
Lesson 1. Get your current atmospherics before going to a remote area.
I decided that i would probably do ok with the data used when I zeroed, and set the range to 500 yards. BAE suggested 2.8 mil of elevation, over my 200 yard zero. I cranked the turret, and settled on the bags. Remembering a recent discussion I'd read on the board, I let the rifle settle to a natural POA, corrected, and checked again. Crosshairs now rest naturally within the 12" plate. I touched off the CCB shot and hit the plate, center high. The next 3 rounds all hit .1 mil to the right. I took out .1 mil of elevation and the next two were vertically centered on the plate. So, BAE was off by +.1 mil at 500 yards.
Satisfied I was very close, I painted the steel again, and backed up to 700 yards. Consulting BAE for 700, it indicated 5.4 mils of elevation. Again, I settled on the bag, allowing the rifle to find its natural POA. The first round was wide left. What? Oh, yeah, a light right to left wind had come up, and I hadn't corrected.
Lesson 2. Be aware of the changing conditions.
I gauged the wind at 3-5mph, and BAE recommended a .7 mil hold off for a 4 mph wind. The next shot was still high, so I backed out .2 mil of elevation. The next shot hit the left edge of the plate, so I held the right side, and was rewarded with three more hits, all roughly centered. The BAE app was high by .2 mil, at 700.
![[Image: 831bb17c-ca08-4c9c-aab7-e3597c802f1f_zpsd19cca3e.jpg]](http://s955.photobucket.com/user/NugginFutz/media/831bb17c-ca08-4c9c-aab7-e3597c802f1f_zpsd19cca3e.jpg.html)
Encouraged, I painted the steel, once again, and went for broke, backing up to 1000, for the first time with this rifle. Once again, I checked with BAE, and it recommended a 10.2 mil elevation. Confidently, I settled on the bags, breathed and exhaled partially. I pressed the trigger and hit wide right, by about 1.5 mils. Did I mention no windage changes were made? Yeah - I forgot that, again. (See lesson 2) Corrected and shot. Missed. Repeated this for a total of ten shots, but could not connect with the steel, despite adding left/right windage, as needed and changing hold over.
Thinking I had either reached the limits of precision with my load, rifle, or myself, I drove down to the target. As I feared, the plate was untouched. The crossbar, on the other hand was not. I had apparently been shooting high, and had put a hole through the crossbar, directly over the plate. Which brings me to...
Lesson 3: It helps to take a spotter with a good scope with you for real time feedback, before sending multiple wasted rounds downrange. This is especially true if you haven't yet characterized your ballistics.
By this time, the wind had come up, I was starting to get too much sun, and some dirt bikers had found my location and were too close for safety. I decided to call it a day.
As I sit here and type this, I entered all the correct atmospherics into BAE, which now informs my that on a 70' day, at the true shooting altitude (+35' and +1000 feet from the original zero conditions) it wants not 10.2 mil of elevation, but 9.6! I can't say if that is totally accurate, but I suspect that it would have gotten me close, and perhaps even on steel. The crossbar is about a foot above the top of the target, and .6 mils is about 20" at 1000 yards. (Sigh!)
This brings me to..
Lesson 4: At the very least, put the approximate temperature and elevation into the ballistic app.
If you are to trust your indications, you should at least allow the poor program the courtesy of the truth about conditions.
A very educational day for me, and I finally GOT TO GO SHOOT!
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - LRRPF52 - 02-16-2014
Very rewarding that you recorded this info and took note. In a formal long-range class, we would plug this data in right before shooting, including baro pressure, temp, humidty, and preferably a Density Altitude function with the ballistics program.
Funny you mention "NO service" contingencies. Before I go out, I check online the local city or town weather conditions, most importantly the baro pressure and temp, then humidity. I look on google earth for elevation data of the exact area I'll be in for a raw back-up data point as well.
The last time I was doing load development with my .260 Remington in the fall at 500yds, I input all this data and thought it would still be rough because I was working with loads I had never worked with before, both bullet and powder. My first shot center-punched the circle on a steel IPSC, and I put 3 rounds on the same vertical plane within a few inches of each other right on the x and 10 ring on a bullseye target. I doubt that would have been possible back when we relied on data books. I was just using the free Strelok app as well for this.
There are some very good lessons learned in your post, and glad that the settling the gun position building technique worked for you. Nice hits on the steel plate.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - GMinor - 02-16-2014
What I've noticed while using BAE.
If you hit high of low at a certain distance, for instance your 500 yard target, use the built in velocity corrector and it will bring all your shots into center. So you could have put in -.1 mils at 500 yards, make sure the radio button is checked for relative and you will be good to go.
I did this at a match recently and boy did it help with 1st round hits...
Also, I bring along a little weather station so I can keep track of current conditions, as well as watch for changes. I think the weatherport ran me $35. 100% worth every penny, even used it to help out a competitor next to me who had NO idea what the conditions were like and upped his rounds on target count significantly.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - Nukes - 02-16-2014
Just as you reported, I am fascinated by the discrepancies between calculated and observed come-ups. While I do not expect miracles from a $500 chronograph I will be most curious to see if the Doppler radar chronos provide velocities, hence come-ups, that match better than Oehler 35-derived data.
http://mylabradar.com
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - Hattrick - 06-23-2014
Question do you guys use these apps as starting points then tweak the dope card or can you tweak the app for the load.? I notieced today shooting the 308 it was considerably off. We have documented 2 loads out to 500 yds. I had everything punch in but the barrel length. I'm not a computer guy so I might of missed that piece but can't recall were it was a place to enter barrel length. We zero my gredel in at 200 today so that is next on the list. I downloaded the app today. We are going to hit 100 increments out to 500 and then this fall continue to 1,000 or so.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - rasp65 - 06-23-2014
Hattrick I am not sure what you are using for a scope but it is always a good idea to do a box test on it to make sure it is responding to the changes correctly. It is demonstrated here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COhFIummSFw
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - NugginFutz - 06-23-2014
Hattrick Wrote:Question do you guys use these apps as starting points then tweak the dope card or can you tweak the app for the load.? I notieced today shooting the 308 it was considerably off. We have documented 2 loads out to 500 yds. I had everything punch in but the barrel length. I'm not a computer guy so I might of missed that piece but can't recall were it was a place to enter barrel length. We zero my gredel in at 200 today so that is next on the list. I downloaded the app today. We are going to hit 100 increments out to 500 and then this fall continue to 1,000 or so.
Speaking for myself, I have moved away from dope cards mainly because they are accurate only under the conditions they were developed. I originally had used ballistic programs to create a starting point for my dope cards, but eventually stopped, as their limitations became clear. This is more apparent, the longer the distance at which you shoot.
Ballistic solutions are ideally determined dynamically. Clearly, wind is the most volatile of the variables, but if you consider that 5 degree changes in temperature can have an impact on bullet drops measured in feet, not inches, you realize that data on a card developed weeks or months earlier will only work if you have replicated those conditions. This is why I have transitioned to using either a ballistic program or hand calculations when shooting at any significant distance (500+ yards).
Any decent ballistic app will allow you to enter all the data needed to arrive at a 95% or better firing solution, including your projectile's weight, BC, length and velocity, as well as atmospheric data. For longer range shots, an app which allows use of G7 ballistics (as opposed to G1) can offer more accurate solutions, as they are a better fit.
As far as barrel length being a part of the ballistic solution goes, I am unaware of any of the commercially available programs incorporating that into their solutions. With the muzzle velocity being a fixed value in a given situation, the barrel length really offers nothing I can see. Twist rates might be useful, perhaps, but only for determining the stability of given a projectile. Even that is not accounted for in any of the ballistic programs I am familiar with. I believe most apps assume you are shooting a properly stabilized projectile, as the calculations would become quite intense when trying to account for different modes of stability.
Hope my .02 helps.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - Hattrick - 06-24-2014
Big help thanks for the input. Tactical scopes and ballistic apps are a little new to me. I must admit its addicting and adding a whole new level of fun in are long range shooting. Right now I've been using the strelok and my buddies nightforce app. I'm sure I probe.y had something plugged wrong.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - Hattrick - 06-24-2014
Box test is cool. The scope I'm using is a vortex 6-24
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - LR1955 - 06-24-2014
NugginFutz Wrote:Ballistic solutions are ideally determined dynamically. Clearly, wind is the most volatile of the variables, but if you consider that 5 degree changes in temperature can have an impact on bullet drops measured in feet, not inches, you realize that data on a card developed weeks or months earlier will only work if you have replicated those conditions.
NF:
Give us a situation where a five (5) degree change in temperature will shift the drop of a bullet in feet.
LR55
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - NugginFutz - 06-24-2014
Well, truth is, I can't. 25 degree change, yes. Not a 5. I should not try to post from work, where I can't take the time to do a proper calc. Thanks for keeping me honest, LR55. (Note to self: stop trying to shoot from the hip.)
At 1200 yds with a 25 'f change, my drop goes from 515" to 533"' . But you probably knew that when you posted your question.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - babaganoush - 06-24-2014
We appreciate your candor, NF. That's one of the reasons why I enjoy this board so much. Plenty of checks and balances, with most of the members checking their ego's at the door.
Thanks, LR1955, for keeping a weather eye on the forum.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - Variable - 06-24-2014
LR1955 Wrote:NF:
Give us a situation where a five (5) degree change in temperature will shift the drop of a bullet in feet.
LR55
I thought I'd be a smartass and throw you a 1600 yard calc for .50 Amax out of my Windrunner. I only netted 3.6 inches.:o I've completely lost touch with my actual dope over the years. I've gotta dig it out, knock the dust off that case, and start actually shooting again. I'm completely out of touch.
All work and no play has made me a rusty worthless dude...
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - LR1955 - 06-25-2014
Guys:
Here is my point and it comes from doing these calculations. You need to be shooting at a very long distance for them to be of value and at those distances you will never really know what variable caused what. The Grendel is a 500 meter cartridge in terms of military applications. You don't see anyone using it and winning at Camp Perry or in F Class.
So you guys are talking 1000 to over 2000 yards. OK, I have noted a temperature change of ten degrees between firing lines and 200 yards, let alone 1500 yards for example. And there are probably variations in barometric pressure between you and 1500 yards. I have found mirage to have huge effects on elevation at relatively short distances, let alone distances past 1K yards. And it is damn hard to tell if a miss was due to poor zero / hold or that the shooter didn't determine the range well enough. Then there is wind which may fishtail two or three times between you and the target with huge variations in speed between you and say, 1500 yards.
No doubt there are variations in elevation due to air temp, ammo temp, and Bp and these play a role at very long ranges but they play less a role given a very fast and ballistically designed bullet. And, even if a cartridge is inefficient for those distances, the guy who knows his elevation from experience is much better off than one who uses a app to extrapolate an elevation change from a very short range zero.
I don't really have problems with these apps and other devices that assist in a ballistic calculation. They all go into the learning process. I sure wouldn't trust my life to them.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - NugginFutz - 06-25-2014
LR55,
With all due respect, I would submit that ballistic calculators have their place, and I believe they are more common than you seem to be giving them credit. While I acknowledge that military snipers are trained to use their basic skills to range and dope, it is my understanding the modern long range shooters in the various branches are utilizing these devices, along with LRFs for greater first round hit probabilities. Somebody please correct me if I am in error on this.
As far as one's life depending on a calculator, I think it is reasonable to state that in the daily experiences of the vast majority of the shooters on this forum, we are not talking about battlefield types of engagement, and lives are not typically at stake.
My shooting involves targets that are typically much smaller than the 24" wide, 40" tall silhouettes and, consequently, the margin of error is more critical. One of my past-times is varminting, and when cleaning out a prairie dog town at 700 - 900+ yards, I rarely get second shots on the same target at the same range. Further, it has been my direct experience that at those distances, inches do count and dope cards rarely have it just right on a given day. Yes, as my experience builds, I am getting more comfortable "calling an audible" from time to time but for my purposes, I still find BAE invaluable.
Do I sound a tad OC? I am certain that to some, I do. That is my nature, and I enjoy the satisfaction of using fewer rounds to accomplish my objectives. Using a ballistics app is one of the tools that helps me to reduce the number of variables that can cause errant shots. Yes, there are a myriad of factors which can cause a miss, but why not take advantage of a tool with such obvious utility? I don't for one second espouse the idea that a ballistic app will guarantee a first round hit, but I can say without reservation that my first round hits are far more frequent since I started using it.
Lastly, while I don't think anyone here truly considers the Grendel's effective range to be greater than 500-600 yards as it relates to either medium game or man-sized targets, that does not negate or rule out its appeal for shooting at much greater distances. Recreational shooting obviously has many facets, and long range happens to be one I enjoy exploring - with this weapon and others with greater potential.
In short, different strokes...
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - LR1955 - 06-25-2014
NugginFutz Wrote:LR55,
With all due respect, I would submit that ballistic calculators have their place, and I believe they are more common than you seem to be giving them credit. While I acknowledge that military snipers are trained to use their basic skills to range and dope, it is my understanding the modern long range shooters in the various branches are utilizing these devices, along with LRFs for greater first round hit probabilities. Somebody please correct me if I am in error on this.
As far as one's life depending on a calculator, I think it is reasonable to state that in the daily experiences of the vast majority of the shooters on this forum, we are not talking about battlefield types of engagement, and lives are not typically at stake.
My shooting involves targets that are typically much smaller than the 24" wide, 40" tall silhouettes and, consequently, the margin of error is more critical. One of my past-times is varminting, and when cleaning out a prairie dog town at 700 - 900+ yards, I rarely get second shots on the same target at the same range. Further, it has been my direct experience that at those distances, inches do count and dope cards rarely have it just right on a given day. Yes, as my experience builds, I am getting more comfortable "calling an audible" from time to time but for my purposes, I still find BAE invaluable.
Do I sound a tad OC? I am certain that to some, I do. That is my nature, and I enjoy the satisfaction of using fewer rounds to accomplish my objectives. Using a ballistics app is one of the tools that helps me to reduce the number of variables that can cause errant shots. Yes, there are a myriad of factors which can cause a miss, but why not take advantage of a tool with such obvious utility? I don't for one second espouse the idea that a ballistic app will guarantee a first round hit, but I can say without reservation that my first round hits are far more frequent since I started using it.
Lastly, while I don't think anyone here truly considers the Grendel's effective range to be greater than 500-600 yards as it relates to either medium game or man-sized targets, that does not negate or rule out its appeal for shooting at much greater distances. Recreational shooting obviously has many facets, and long range happens to be one I enjoy exploring - with this weapon and others with greater potential.
In short, different strokes...
NF / Guys:
Not as different as some may think. Very similar in fact. Except for the OCD part....
Never said there was something wrong with using the gimmicks and apps available for long range shooting. I would just advise guys to temper their trust for such things. Understand that 500 yards is about where one sees differences in exterior ballistics between ammunition types. So hitting a IPSC steel at 500 probably isn't due to the 1/4 minute difference a app gives than just using your zero and come ups.
I shoot High Power and compete in winter biathlon. I shoot steel at unknown distances when I can find a place to do so, but don't assume the steels I have are E-Sils. I wish I had a place close by to set in steel to long ranges but that isn't the case. I spent many years training Army precision Riflemen following my career. Don't assume my standards were always minute of man.
So, you won't get much of an argument going between me and anyone else here. I would just caution newer guys to temper their trust in some of this technology. It does work but unless you are going to extremes, it doesn't work as much as one may think.
Off to train!
LR55
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - stokesrj - 06-25-2014
I often see folks who come to the range with an anemometer, ballistic calculators, very good optics, accurate rifles and loads, yet are very surprised when they miss the whole target at 1,000 yards. I also see savvy competitors who look throughout their spotting scope read the conditions, dial their sights and make a centered shot. The difference is experience, the number of rounds sent down range under varied conditions and familiarity with the rifle and load in use.
I've personally watched snipers setting up for the shot using the conditions at the shooting line, yet failing to account for the changing conditions along the bullets path to the target. Snipers seldom get enough practice to truly learn how to read the conditions. More of their training is on stealth and information collections the focus on shooting is of less priority.
The US Army (SOCOM) recently released a study in which it was found, the average Camp Perry trained High Power rifle competitor was 300% more likely to get a first round hit on a man sized target at 1,000 yards than a recently returned from theater sniper. The reason is simple, the number of rounds put down range fired by the competitor, completely overwhelms the number fired by the sniper. This allows the competitor to learn hold, trigger control, sight picture, and condition reading to a whole new level of proficiency.
As LR55 said, nothing wrong with good equipment and calculators, but it does not replace skill and experience, which are only gained by thousands upon thousands of rounds down range with good feedback.
Here is a link to a discussion about the paper. http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/socom-study-finds-camp-perry-competitors-are-300-more-skillful-at-shooting-than-snipers.16402/
Bob
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - Slappy - 06-25-2014
Practice practice practice in different conditions. BANG BANG!!! Oh then practice some more!!
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - NugginFutz - 06-25-2014
LR1955 Wrote:I shoot High Power and compete in winter biathlon. I shoot steel at unknown distances when I can find a place to do so, but don't assume the steels I have are E-Sils. I wish I had a place close by to set in steel to long ranges but that isn't the case. I spent many years training Army precision Riflemen following my career. Don't assume my standards were always minute of man.
LR55
Therein lies one of the major differences between you and me, LR55. I have neither the time or budget for shooting that many rounds and as a consequence, my skills have not evolved as fast or as far as yours likely have. I need all the help I can get. Heck - that is why I signed up for LRRPF52's class, this fall.
LR1955 Wrote:So, you won't get much of an argument going between me and anyone else here. I would just caution newer guys to temper their trust in some of this technology. It does work but unless you are going to extremes, it doesn't work as much as one may think.
LR55
Nor would I argue this point. Top drawer tools don't make people into craftsman. Training, skill and experience does. I've seen plenty of hacks with nice shiny tools do things to fine wood that is considered criminal in 40 states.
The reason I started this thread in the first place was to share my experience and the lessons learned. If anything, LR55, one can see from my OP that my experience directly supports your cautions on these apps.
So, yes - not so different.
Ballistic Apps and the Importance of Accurate Data - davidj - 06-25-2014
NF
Thanks for sharing. We never stop learning. Good information from all. I am lucky to belong to a club that supplies weather info:
Del Norte Gun Club, NM Del Norte Gun Club, NM
78°78° HIGH 78°FHIGH 78°F at 8:40 AM
LOW 61°FLOW 61°F at 3:27 AM
Wind WNW 5 MphWNW 5 Mph High Gust 12 Mph at 5:20 AM
Humidity 27%27% Feels Like 76°F
Rain 0.00"0.00" Seasonal Total 0.83"
Barometer 29.58"29.58" Steady
Current Conditions as of 11:45 AM Wednesday, June 25, 2014
Vantage Vue data via WeatherLinkIP