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+--- Thread: Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems (/showthread.php?tid=7235)
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Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - 45r - 02-03-2014
My Saturn Liberty barrel is shooting half inch groups at 50 yards with a Holo sight.
This is with H-322 and varmit bullets.
It should do even better with the 123 grain SST's I've ordered.
For now it will smack down yotes hard and the RDS will work good within a couple hundred yards in low light conditions..
When it gets warmer and the deep snow goes away I'll take it long range with a scope.
I don't think anything is wrong with my barrel if it can shoot MOA with a RDS.
The barrel isn't even broke in yet.
I think if some will give their barrels a try they will find they are accurate.
Thanks XCR for getting me this barrel at a great price.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - babaganoush - 02-03-2014
This is the reason why caution is necessary.
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7952-New-18in-Liberty-barrel-and-bolt-is-this-normal-for-the-6.5G&p=85505&viewfull=1#post85505
If you do decide to shoot a barrel, even after noting that the chamber is short, you may well experience the same results. As so many have tried to stress, higher velocities do not come free. All other things being equal, it takes higher pressures to get them.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - 45r - 02-03-2014
My barrel and bolt show no problems at all.
The load I'm using is 29.6 grains H-322 under an 85 grain sierra with fed 205m primers.
My COL is 2.140 and the bullet is not jammed.
It ejects easily with no marks anywhere on the bullet.
The primers aren't flat and the load is a half grain under max.
I did a lot of prep to my upper build and that may have helped my barrel shoot well.
Not going to get chrono with deep snow outside.
I think it's close to 2900 fps.
Plenty good for yotes.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Tedward - 02-03-2014
45r Wrote:My barrel and bolt show no problems at all.
The load I'm using is 29.6 grains H-322 under an 85 grain sierra with fed 205m primers.
My COL is 2.140 and the bullet is not jammed.
It ejects easily with no marks anywhere on the bullet.
The primers aren't flat and the load is a half grain under max.
I did a lot of prep to my upper build and that may have helped my barrel shoot well.
Not going to get chrono with deep snow outside.
I think it's close to 2900 fps.
Plenty good for yotes.
45r,
Glad to hear you added some gunsmith techniques to your build. I have had this discussion with people who build rifles too and they agree it is not just slap a barrel on an upper and shoot. People on the forum take time to lap uppers, bead barrels ect, so maybe take a little care and an extra step to break a barrel in that was not hand lapped ( and you saved the $$) and it will work fine for them. After you run some of your lite weight bullets I am interested how the heavier bullets will perform and chamber. I would like to know if the OAL will increase with a little brake in too.
Since Longranger used the Tubbs polish bullets he had no issue, his OAL got longer so I wonder if the throat just needed polished. Seems to have worked for him and he got a barrel quickly without a year wait and saved the money too.
Maybe it is just the rough throat issue that can be resolved with either loading short rounds and brake it in or use the Tubb's if you cant wait. Those that don't hand load and can't take those steps, it might be suggested that they need to buy from a rifle builder or buy a hand lapped barrel.
I just got my Hornady OAL seating depth tool to use with my Hornady Modified Case. Now I can use the proper tools to take my measurement as I will do the brake in with factory ammo.
Keep us posted!
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - explorecaves - 02-04-2014
Tedward Wrote:Maybe it is just the rough throat issue that can be resolved with either loading short rounds and brake it in or use the Tubb's if you cant wait. Those that don't hand load and can't take those steps, it might be suggested that they need to buy from a rifle builder or buy a hand lapped barrel.
I guess I still don't understand why one shouldn't be able to chamber factory rounds if the chamber is supposed to be in SAAMI spec….
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Tedward - 02-04-2014
I guess if it is a rough cut, 180 grit sanded and not polished, it might need some sanding or polishing or as said, hand lapped. I really don't know, I just shoot mine.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - NugginFutz - 02-04-2014
Tedward Wrote:I guess if it is a rough cut, 180 grit sanded and not polished, it might need some sanding or polishing or as said, hand lapped. I really don't know, I just shoot mine.
So, if I understand you correctly, Tedward, are you saying the the Liberty barrels are delivered in a partially finished state? I ask, because that is what I how I define something I would have to modify, polish, sand or ream prior to being able to use it safely or with factory ammunition.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - babaganoush - 02-04-2014
45r Wrote:My barrel and bolt show no problems at all.
The load I'm using is 29.6 grains H-322 under an 85 grain sierra with fed 205m primers.
My COL is 2.140 and the bullet is not jammed.
It ejects easily with no marks anywhere on the bullet.
The primers aren't flat and the load is a half grain under max.
I did a lot of prep to my upper build and that may have helped my barrel shoot well.
Not going to get chrono with deep snow outside.
I think it's close to 2900 fps.
Plenty good for yotes.
I apologize for not making myself clearer, 45r. I was not necessarily addressing myself or that post to reloaders, since any responsible reloader will work their charges up from a safe starting point, watching for pressure signs or significant deviations from velocity curves.
I was, however, trying to make the point primarily for the benefit of anyone who shoots factory ammunition without foreknowledge of the short chamber issues recently discussed. The individual whose post I linked to experienced classic symptoms of shooting ammunition intended for the expected freebore of a SAAMI chamber but jammed, instead, into the lands.
I commend you for doing the responsible thing, and seating your ammunition short of the throat and your charges within sane levels.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - customcutter - 02-04-2014
Tedward Wrote:I just got my Hornady OAL seating depth tool to use with my Hornady Modified Case. Now I can use the proper tools to take my measurement as I will do the brake in with factory ammo.
Keep us posted!
Do you have any measurements of the Liberty barrels that you bought?
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Tedward - 02-04-2014
NugginFutz Wrote:So, if I understand you correctly, Tedward, are you saying the the Liberty barrels are delivered in a partially finished state? I ask, because that is what I how I define something I would have to modify, polish, sand or ream prior to being able to use it safely or with factory ammunition.
Apparently you did not understand what I said. I did not say anything was partially finished. I also did not say anything had to be modified. I don't have to sand or polish anything but if you want to you could.
Also as you are putting words in my mouth, I also did not say anything about safety.
You are starting to twist words and good luck.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Tedward - 02-04-2014
customcutter Wrote:Do you have any measurements of the Liberty barrels that you bought?
Yes I got the gauges but have not had time to do any measuring. After a few posts on this trend I feel I'll keep my information to myself and will not pass on what I hear and the ones that pound on me for me passing info can just answer the questions, they already know the answers. If I say something apprently it will be twisted or its my doing so hopefully we can communicate some other time.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - customcutter - 02-04-2014
PM me if you would. I've got one of the 18" barrels and factory SST's chamber and extract easily without releasing the bolt. I need to get a set of dies, to resize some 7.62X39 brass or shoot a 123SST to get some used brass. I can make my own gauge, if I had the brass.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Tedward - 02-04-2014
customcutter Wrote:PM me if you would. I've got one of the 18" barrels and factory SST's chamber and extract easily without releasing the bolt. I need to get a set of dies, to resize some 7.62X39 brass or shoot a 123SST to get some used brass. I can make my own gauge, if I had the brass.
The Hornady Modified Case is ($6) and OAL Gauge ($32) is in stock at Brownells, $38 for both and then all you need are additional cases for $6 each in what ever caliber you need. I got the 300 BO too.
http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/bullet-seating-depth-tools/hornady-lock-n-load-modified-cases-prod32817.aspx
http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/bullet-seating-depth-tools/hornady-lock-n-load-oal-gauge-standard--prod35663.aspx
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - BjornF16 - 02-04-2014
Tedward Wrote:Yes I got the gauges but have not had time to do any measuring. After a few posts on this trend I feel I'll keep my information to myself and will not pass on what I hear and the ones that pound on me for me passing info can just answer the questions, they already know the answers. If I say something apprently it will be twisted or its my doing so hopefully we can communicate some other time.
Ted, don't be so thin-skinned.
You may get criticized for passing along "hearsay" which appears to support a narrative of AA bashing (e.g. "Grendel II"), but no one will criticize you for actually using critical thinking or asking questions to further your knowledge.
There are a lot of unanswered questions, probably won't all get answered. Let me summarize:
1. Does S. Satern believe throat is part of SAAMI spec or not?
2. Has an independent source confirmed via air gauging that the Satern Liberty barrel PTG reamer is "in spec"?
3. Why is it that only barrels chambered with PTG reamer exhibit apparent "short chamber" phenomenon? (i.e. Liberty and McGowan barrels)
4. Why does XCountryRider believe the Liberty barrels have always been "short throated"?
5. Why are Satern barrels not exhibiting the issue but Liberty barrels do? (different reamer source?; better machining practices?; lack of QC for Liberty?; something else?)
Facts:
1. SAAMI specifies MINIMUM chamber
2. SAAMI specifies MAXIMUM cartridge
3. No SAAMI spec for reamer (i.e. up to reamer maker and barrel chamberer to ensure resulting chamber is "in spec")
I have two Satern Spartan barreled Grendel ARs...they shoot great. I had one entry AA Grendel upper (which I sold)...it shot great. I completely understand why AA maintained such tight control of the pre-SAAMI reamer specs. I shoot factory AA and Hornady ammo without a problem in my guns, from 115 Berger to 130 Scirrocco...no issues extracting unfired cartridges from either Spartan barrel.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Tedward - 02-04-2014
BjornF16,
First I just don't like being barked at or called a liar for passing info along. Feel free as you did and others for asking the questions and I'll try to get answers. I have no affiliation with Satern, I just have contact with them trying to help get a good, reliable and safe product delivered to me and everyone as well.
Those are good questions and the first 3 are ones I will ask next time I'm in conversation. There employees lurk hear on the forum so these questions will be questioned most likely. I did ask if they get 5 PTG reamers do they hand select the reamers for the Spartan Barrels. The question was unknown to the POC I was talking to is going to be asked to upper management. I also asked do they use different manufactures reamers on the Spartan Barrels too so hopefully will get that answer as well.
I hope they get these answers and the issue resolved. If its a reamer, I hope PTG resolves there issue too. I think all of our comments and concerns have brought light to them and they will do there diligence to resolve the issue.
Again, if the throat needs reamed to the + side of the tolerances in the SAAMI spec, then maybe that is what he meant, not a different chamber. Again I might have mis-worded what he meant and was explaining to me.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Sputnik - 02-04-2014
So this may not be "just internet hysteria?"
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - 45r - 02-04-2014
babaganoush Wrote:I apologize for not making myself clearer, 45r. I was not necessarily addressing myself or that post to reloaders, since any responsible reloader will work their charges up from a safe starting point, watching for pressure signs or significant deviations from velocity curves.
I was, however, trying to make the point primarily for the benefit of anyone who shoots factory ammunition without foreknowledge of the short chamber issues recently discussed. The individual whose post I linked to experienced classic symptoms of shooting ammunition intended for the expected freebore of a SAAMI chamber but jammed, instead, into the lands.
I commend you for doing the responsible thing, and seating your ammunition short of the throat and your charges within sane levels.
I agree that the person who has bolt peening with only 26 shots should send his parts in.His bolt doesn't look good at all.
If I didn't handload and had scraping on the bullets with factory ammo I would send it in to be rethroated.
I posted my experience so far to show that handloaders can get these tight throat barrels to work and shoot accurate.
I did polish the chamber a lot with JB's and Flitz.
I wanted to thank XCR for his effort and let him know Mine is not going back in.
I feel for him and Mr. Saturn.
I'm sure they wanted to make everyone happy.
It's hard to get 6.5 barrels and I'm glad I got mine.
I think I'm going to like the 65Grendel a lot.
It has shown the accuracy I've heard it's known for.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - BjornF16 - 02-05-2014
Tedward Wrote:BjornF16,
First I just don't like being barked at or called a liar for passing info along. Feel free as you did and others for asking the questions and I'll try to get answers. I have no affiliation with Satern, I just have contact with them trying to help get a good, reliable and safe product delivered to me and everyone as well.
Those are good questions and the first 3 are ones I will ask next time I'm in conversation. There employees lurk hear on the forum so these questions will be questioned most likely. I did ask if they get 5 PTG reamers do they hand select the reamers for the Spartan Barrels. The question was unknown to the POC I was talking to is going to be asked to upper management. I also asked do they use different manufactures reamers on the Spartan Barrels too so hopefully will get that answer as well.
I hope they get these answers and the issue resolved. If its a reamer, I hope PTG resolves there issue too. I think all of our comments and concerns have brought light to them and they will do there diligence to resolve the issue.
Again, if the throat needs reamed to the + side of the tolerances in the SAAMI spec, then maybe that is what he meant, not a different chamber. Again I might have mis-worded what he meant and was explaining to me.
Tedward, I don't believe I called you a liar. Please show me where I did that....guilty as charged for barking.
While I don't have a dog in this hunt (I don't have a Liberty barrel), I do have two Satern Spartans (pre-SAAMI manufactured according to Bill Alexander's tightly controlled specifications). I'm very interested in the answers to the questions I posed as I'm looking for additional Grendel ARs for family members. It is important to me that Satern adequately addresses this issue as it will make/break whether I'm a returning customer for Satern barrels.
I am, however, disappointed that the first reaction from Satern was to accuse AA ammo of being "out of spec". Strike one.
I was also disappointed that the second reaction from Satern (or at least attributed to them) was to call the SAAMI Grendel a "Grendel II". Strike two.
Waiting for the end result...
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - NugginFutz - 02-05-2014
BjornF16 Wrote:Tedward, I don't believe I called you a liar. Please show me where I did that....guilty as charged for barking.
BjornF16 - I don't believe that Ted was accusing you, specifically, of calling him a liar. In the closed thread, someone had pasted a link to a post Steve Satern had made, in response to a statement from Ted about them not even having an account on this board. In that post, Ted's statement was referred to as a lie. I'd made a followup comment, in Ted's defense, that it was likely more a case of being under informed on the membership status, rather than a lie.
And as for myself, Ted, I was not trying to put words in your mouth, so much as asking if you were saying what I thought you were. It was a question, not an accusation. I admit it could have been phrased in a less confrontational way, but the deed is done. Please accept my apologies for causing you to feel further persecuted.
Saturn Lyberty barrel shoots accurate and no problems - Tedward - 02-05-2014
BjornF16 Wrote:Tedward, I don't believe I called you a liar. Please show me where I did that....guilty as charged for barking.
...
I was not saying you did, sorry if it looked that was, it was a little while ago by someone else. All is good and i know this is a frustrating topic so we all need to keep out thoughts on track and bwaites started a new trend and explains things quite well.
All is good.