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Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-27-2013
Recently, it was learned that Troy Industries Training Company had an employee on staff who is a vocal opponent of the Rights of mere peasants to keep and bear arms. Once this information became known, there was a massive backlash, and that employee was terminated.
However, it was also discovered that Lon Horiuchi's "Sniper" Partner, Dale Monroe, is employed by Troy, who said this before Congressional Investigation into the Ruby Ridge murders:
Quote:Dale R. Monroe, the partner of FBI hostage rescue team leader Lon Horiuchi--who fired the fatal shot--said that he was preparing to fire but did not because Horiuchi fired first.http://articles.latimes.com/1995-09-15/news/mn-46142_1_ruby-ridge
Horiuchi invoked his 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimination Tuesday after the Senate Judiciary subcommittee on terrorism refused to give him limited immunity from prosecution.
"We don't have Mr. Horiuchi here," subcommittee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-Pa.) pointed out Thursday to underscore the importance of the snipers' testimony. "You are as close as we have."
Lon Horiuchi is the FBI HRT Team "Sniper" who shot Vicki Weaver in the head while she was holding her baby daughter in her arms in their cabin, after US Marshals had been told by the ATF that Randy Weaver was illegally manufacturing dangerous weapons when they failed to entrap him to be an informant for them on their own errant agents who were members of a white supremacist group in the area.
The ATF-inspired scheme resulted in:
* Killing of the Weaver's dog near their remote cabin by the US Marshals, using FULL AUTO MP5 fire from a concealed position in the woods
* Killing of a US Marshal
* Randy Weaver's small son shot in the back
* Their family friend shot in the shoulder
* Vicki Weaver shot in the head and killed
* Randy Weaver shot
* FBI HRT "operators" verbally taunting the Weaver family survivors (small children and Randy) while their mother bled out from her head on the kitchen floor before their eyes as they lay down seeking cover, their son/brother's corpse rotting in a nearby shed
* Court case awarded a multi-million dollar judgment in favor of who was left over in the Weaver family, though Weaver was jailed for the firearms violation where ATF undercover repeatedly pestered him to cut down a shotgun barrel to 17 3/4", 1/4" under the "legal" limit.
Lon Horiuchi left the HRT, and went to work for one of the regional FBI SRT's in Florida, then retired with full benefits and became an employee with HS Precision, which didn't turn out so well for them.
Now that it has been discovered that his "Sniper" partner is still employed by Troy, many Troy customers, including myself, feel a cold sense of betrayal from a company who we would never have guessed would make such a bold decision.
I just wanted to pass this information on, as I am still quite shocked. Here is the statement from Steve Troy, owner of Troy Industries:
Quote:I appreciate having the opportunity to speak to members of this forum. Troy Asymmetric, part of the “World of Troy,” is a business entity with a director who until this past week, held exclusive hiring authority. I am its owner, it bears my name and as we have witnessed in recent days, effects public opinion of all Troy divisions. Earlier this week, I terminated an instructor who did not support the Second Amendment as ardently as I and members of the community do.
Troy Asymmetric provides training to military and law enforcement personnel. If you spend 5 seconds on the website you’ll see a graphical depiction of a bomb explosion - the primary focus of the company. Take a moment to read the course list and you’ll note a common theme: training pertaining to explosions, bomb threats, post-blast crime scenes, incident command and crisis management. Instructors’ primary areas of expertise lie in the “bomb world,” with EOD experience, critical incident response, and tactical decision making. Some posters on the forum have said we only train “Jack Booted Thugs” and there is a secret agenda. These same posters conveniently ignore Troy Prepared: http://www.troyprepared.com. Troy Asymmetric to this date has offered no firearms training for Gov’t and LE, but in comparison, Troy Prepared has always offered firearms training to qualified civilians. From a factual, non-emotional context, it is impossible to draw the conclusion that we somehow do not support the Second Amendment and are only training “secret army”.
On August 22, 1992, Dale was an HRT Operator tasked to a mission in which he found himself facing armed adversaries. His thoughts were not only on the situation at hand, but the tragic death of a child and a U.S. Marshal. During this type of confrontation when people die, you don’t have the ability to pick sides, they are drawn before you arrive. Dale did what he was trained to do as a sniper / observer. He was fortunate not to have to take a life at this engagement. Special Agent Horiuchi made the regrettable shot, a mistake for which he will never be forgiven. Of the FBI Agents assigned to the Ruby Ridge tragedy, Dale has been one of the most outspoken. He has delivered dozens of presentations to more than 1000 civilians titled “Mistakes and Lessons of Ruby Ridge”. I weighed carefully the decision whether or not to retain Dale and could find no ethical or moral reason to remove him. Dale has not committed a criminal act, he answered all questions honestly, he did not cover anything up and he did not shoot anyone at Ruby Ridge. Dale was asked to join TA for his critical incident management expertise. Dale was never slated by TA for firearms instruction.
We all know from our biggest failures come the greatest lessons in life. Providing training that is relevant with experienced, qualified instructors can prevent a tragedy like Ruby Ridge. Dale will be able to deliver this powerful message and lessons learned in crisis management and incident command. I am driven and passionate about bringing effective change through pertinent training and speakers that have lived through these nightmares. Many times I have seen posts in forums that state “if you weren’t there then SDASTFU”, with that same school of thought, there is no one better than Dale to speak about tragedies like Ruby Ridge.
I have been a longtime and outspoken supporter of the Second Amendment. I always choose to do what’s right, even if my stance goes against others opinion. I will not throw this man to the wolves as he has demonstrated throughout his life high integrity and honor. I know most of those who would disagree are using this forum to voice your anger towards the United States Government. In some cases that anger is justified. The Ruby Ridge tragedy and the loss of life there make no bigger example of abuse of power and Government gone wrong. However, I disagree with your personal attacks on my family and company as we are not the Government and we are not training “Jack Booted Thugs”. I am a patriot and I swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of The United States, all of it. Those who have taken that same oath recognize the importance of keeping it. Thank you. -Steve Troy
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-27-2013
Jody Weis, who has been fired from Troy, is the anti gun former Chicago Police Superintendent.
The things that is really crazy, is that you would even employ someone who was neck-deep in one of the most criticized Federal assaults on the people as an LE instructor. Think about the liability for a second. If an attorney finds out that any LEO involved in a scrutinized shooting, especially one that results in death, was trained by this guy, they are going to have a field day.
Here is a just a sample of the taunts that the FBI HRT yelled at the Weaver's:
Quote:Did you sleep well last night, Vicki?" and "Show us the baby, Vicki? We had pancakes.
This was with Vicki Weaver already dead on the floor, with her head blown apart, Randy Weaver and his friend bleeding out on the same kitchen floor, and the girls absolutely traumatized. Randy was an SF Weapons Sergeant stationed at Fort Bragg back in the late 1960's.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - bow shot - 08-27-2013
I always wonder if, in such cases, the inner voice said, "this is wrong, stop your involvement" and it was ignored, or if there was not word from conscience at all, whether it was seared, ignored, or innocent through ignorance or some other avenue? To me, that's the litmus test. I can't speak for these fellows, I have no way inside their heads.
This is what utterly exasperates me: hearing co-workers, LO, govt. employess, whatever, say, "well, its my job, I have to do it" when they are required to do something that they know is wrong.
God help us when they fire up the ovens for whomever, and eveyone says, "well, its my job..."
FWIW... my friend's Troy functions like crap.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - cory - 08-27-2013
I'm a little torn on this.
I don't condone what happened at Ruby Ridge in any degree. As far as I'm concerned everyone gov official involved in it should of been held criminally liable.
I do respect Steve Troy for standing to his principles, especially in this scenario.
When I was in Corps, during a day on duty, I was tasked out to pick up a Marine who was serving time in the Brig and take him to an event where he spoke to the battalion.
During what was his 4th or 5th enlistment (I don't remember which, but he was on his way to retirement.) he made a decision one night that would change his life forever and end the life of another young Marine. After a night of heavy drinking he decided to drive himself back to base rather than calling a cab, this was a decision he had admit-tingly made many times prior. The young Marine (PFC I believe) was riding a mountain bike back to his barracks. The Senior Marine never saw him and struck him with his truck, ending the life of the young Marine.
Hearing him tell his story was a powerful thing that affected my future decision making as a young Marine myself.
My point is I've seen the benefits of someone who has done something horrific, telling their story.
Like I said I'm torn on this one. That being said if it was the guy who pulled the trigger I'd be boycotting Troy Ind.
I'll have to think about this one.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-27-2013
The incident you relate was an accident, made worse by the poor decision to drive while under the influence. He was held to a higher standard of consequences than the wannabe snipers who went up as a group with an ROE they all knew didn't pass muster of day 1 in Quantico's FBI Special Agent Course.
That is well-documented by some of the agents themselves, as well as the Danny Coulsen, the career FBI man who claims responsibility for standing up the HRT. The Congressional Investigation into it found the FBI, ATF, and US Marshals in the wrong side of the law, and ordered millions of dollars in damages to be awarded to the victims.
Lon Horiuchi later went to be employed with HS Precision. Monroe, his "sniper buddy", is now employed by Troy. I, having been a satisfied Troy customer for years, was totally shocked when I learned this. I would never have guessed that Troy would ever in a million years hire such an agent with such a tainted record. He will be a liability to any organization that pays him to train them, because their mistakes in the future will be scrutinized, and once an attorney learns that they had Monroe train them, it will be a field day. Doesn't matter even if the officers followed protocol, because an attorney can make a solid case that the officers were only following bad policy-bad policy that was crafted or influenced by Agent Monroe. Ignorance is not a defense, especially in use of force incidents.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - cory - 08-27-2013
Valid point, I do agree!
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - montana - 08-27-2013
I have many friends in Law enforcement and understand the confusing situations that can occur. Mistakes can happen to any of us, but trying to justify the shooting of a mother in the face while holding an infant is outrageous. There should have been serious consequences in that mistake with everyone involved ,yet no accountability occurred. If memory doesn't fail me I believe I remember a Denver swat team leader who refused to give the orders to shoot on sight to his men when he was instructed to do so at Ruby Ridge. Common sense and morality is the responsibility of every individual no matter who gives an order. At the end of the day everyone should be held accountable for their actions.
Thanks for the update LRRPF52,
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-27-2013
Also remember, Lon Horiuchi said that Weaver and his family were "menacing at the helicopter in a threatening manner", therefore, he shot him in the back with a precision bolt-action .308, then shot at Harris, hitting Vicki in the head by "accident".
This was after the family had gone out to look over the body of their little boy, to try to prevent his corpse from being preyed upon by vermin. He had been shot earlier by Marshal Degan in the back from a concealed position in the woods. The US Marshals were supposed to be conducting covert surveillance, without making contact, but were compromised early on because the lacked any fieldcraft in that skill set.
I'm still trying to wake up from the Twilight Zone that Troy is actually employing Monroe. J-fled was bad enough, and they fired him almost immediately upon discovery that he was with the Training division, but Monroe is staying? J-fled willingly and knowingly failed his duty as a LEO to protect, and his reputation is known for being a coward. Monroe is the opposite-he actually participated in the use of illegal deadly force against civilians, then worked hard to cover it up before Congress.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-27-2013
montana Wrote:I have many friends in Law enforcement and understand the confusing situations that can occur. Mistakes can happen to any of us, but trying to justify the shooting of a mother in the face while holding an infant is outrageous. There should have been serious consequences in that mistake with everyone involved ,yet no accountability occurred. If memory doesn't fail me I believe I remember a Denver swat team leader who refused to give the orders to shoot on sight to his men when he was instructed to do so at Ruby Ridge. Common sense and morality is the responsibility of every individual no matter who gives an order. At the end of the day everyone should be held accountable for their actions.
Thanks for the update LRRPF52,
Yup. The Denver SWAT Commander immediately recognized that the ROE was totally insane, and refused to follow such blatantly-unconstitutional orders. He went home with a conscience, as did his men. If you read Chris Whitcomb's book, he clearly recognized that the ROE they received was BS, but he deferred to the group of senior HRT "operators", and they knowingly accepted and executed that horrendous ROE, leading to the continued loss of life of innocents.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - NugginFutz - 08-27-2013
Ok - probably going to get banned or something for this, but I have been reading for a while and waiting to get registered. One of the things I recently witnessed was a series of dustups regarding this forum.
So, here goes. "How is this a Second Amendment topic?" I know it's relevant to shooting and guns and the like. But how does this pertain to 2A?
Aren't the rules supposed to apply to all?
I'm just sayin'
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - bow shot - 08-27-2013
Because the mentioned parties are disasterous to the security of the 2A
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-27-2013
NugginFutz Wrote:Ok - probably going to get banned or something for this, but I have been reading for a while and waiting to get registered. One of the things I recently witnessed was a series of dustups regarding this forum.
So, here goes. "How is this a Second Amendment topic?" I know it's relevant to shooting and guns and the like. But how does this pertain to 2A?
Aren't the rules supposed to apply to all?
I'm just sayin'
Relevance Point #1: NFA/2nd Amendment Issue, entrapment, modus operandi of ATF for those of us who think we're law-abiding, when the goal posts are easily moved
The ATF wanted Randy Weaver to be an informant for them, since he was SF in the Army. They had sent in several CI's to the Aryan Nation, all of whom were murdered/disappeared. They suspected that their own Federal agents were part of the Aryan Nation, and wanted intel on who was actually in the group. They had a Confidential Informant who they told to keep pestering Randy Weaver to cut down a shotgun barrel for him, which Randy refused multiple times. Finally, he cut it down to the legal limit of 18", and ATF claims he cut it to 17 3/4" after they "inspected it". Then they arrested him and said it can all go away if he...cooperates in their suicide mission of penetrating the Aryan Nation.
Of course, he wasn't stupid, and refused to participate in ATF buffoonery. They gave him a court date, then changed it without telling him, so they could get him for failure to appear. The ATF then told the US Marshals that Weaver was manufacturing illegal weapons, was a white supremacist, and was also manufacturing methamphetamine-all false statements.
When all was said and done, one US Marshal was killed after getting compromised on an falsely-constructed legal case, a young boy was gunned down with FULL AUTO MP5 fire in the back, the FBI HRT was called in, Vicki Weaver was shot in the head, Randy Weaver was shot in the back, and Harris was shot in the shoulder. Fortunately, after the FBI Hostage Negotiators tormented the family with taunts about their mom, as their son/brother's body decomposed in a nearby shed, Weaver's former Commander intervened to prevent the entire family from being gunned-down or burned alive in their cabin.
One of the FBI Sharpshooter Teams defended their lethal actions by the ROE they were issued, and that ROE was totally flawed. Everyone agrees after the fact that the ROE was flawed, including the HRT Commander, shooters, and especially Congress. What happens? Nobody is punished, but millions are paid out to the Weavers and Harris. Randy Weaver is convicted of failure to appear, and serves a sentence.
Lon Horiuchi, the sharpshooter who killed Vicki Weaver, continued on with a career in FBI SWAT in Florida, and worked for HS Precision after his Federal LEO employment. His partner on that day is now employed by Troy Industries, who have generally been assumed to be pro-2A. Many of us are Troy customers, and I know I personally cannot support a company who employs people with this type of background-a background that is not only openly hostile to the right of free human beings to protect themselves, but one that went above and beyond to murder those that simply wanted to be left alone.
Point #2:
It all starts and ends with 2A issues, and places us in the unique position where, instead of begging our corrupt representatives in Congress to defend the Constitution, we are empowered with our purchasing power to either support or withhold from businesses in the market.
Here we have a prominent 2A-supporter up to this point, who now employs one of the worst violators of the 2A.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-27-2013
NugginFutz Wrote:Ok - probably going to get banned or something for this, but I have been reading for a while and waiting to get registered. One of the things I recently witnessed was a series of dustups regarding this forum.
So, here goes. "How is this a Second Amendment topic?" I know it's relevant to shooting and guns and the like. But how does this pertain to 2A?
Aren't the rules supposed to apply to all?
I'm just sayin'
The Grendel forum is one of the few places where you can have a profanity-free, gentlemanly conversation. It was that way on the old forum, and I was pleasantly surprised to find a place where I was treated with respect, dignity, and lots of valuable information was being shared. Very rarely has it gotten out of hand, and that has only been with one or two people who couldn't resist lashing out with personal attacks. They were banned and have never returned.
Your question is totally valid, and will not be ridiculed. Hopefully I have answered it satisfactorily.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - TheOTHERmaninblack - 08-27-2013
Don't forget that the Ruby Ridge incident was only a step on the ladder that eventually led to Waco. In which the same HRT "operators" also participated, IIRC. The Ruby Ridge aftermath hadn't yet blown up in their faces, and so they felt empowered. As they'll always do until things go sideways on them.
As for Troy, I'm conflicted. "I vass just following orders," will never be a valid defense, but what do we know about this guy since Ruby Ridge? Have we got anything beyond his current employment?
Do we know, for instance, that he hasn't learned a damned thing since his acknowledged intent to obey ludicrous ROEs? Or do we know that he has learned better and is trying to make amends? Is it possible that Troy is standing behind him because he's truly trying to make up for his actions back then? I certainly don't know.
In that vein, however, I'd like to see something from the guy himself to justify our continuing support of Troy. If he can or even tries to explain to me why I should cut him some slack, that would go a long way in justifying Troy's support of him.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - Bronz - 08-27-2013
Troy knowing employed that assassin. They are and should be done.
Troy has a statement over on arf.com
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - NugginFutz - 08-28-2013
Let's not, in our rush to judgement, throw the baby out with the bathwater, here.
From Troy Industry's Facebook Page:
"The accusations that Mr. Monroe would have taken a shot at Vicki Weaver are false. His Congressional testimony affirms that had he a better vantage point, he was prepared to shoot at Kevin Harris, the armed combatant posing an immediate threat to him, his team, and everyone at the scene.
Tragedy lies in the fact that the shot intended for Kevin Harris reached its target, but also struck Vicki Weaver, positioned out of sight, behind a door. For the past 20 years, Mr. Monroe has shared his experiences across the country through many presentations and a television appearance. During these presentations, he explained the mistakes which led up to the tragedy and the valuable lessons learned from the event. While nothing can change what happened that day, Dale’s firsthand account imparts valuable tools to our nation’s law enforcement. I’m confident that his experience at that incident taught him more than the other countless successful missions he completed as an FBI HRT Operator.
It’s easy in an emotionally charged situation where a mother’s life has been taken, to lose sight of the facts. In our most trying times and failures we have an opportunity to rise above and distinguish ourselves to be people of character and honor. I know Dale Monroe to be such a man.
As a Troy Asymmetric instructor, he has the opportunity to prevent future tragedies like Ruby Ridge. We are proud to have him on our team.
-Steve Troy"
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LRRPF52 - 08-28-2013
Quote:The accusations that Mr. Monroe would have taken a shot at Vicki Weaver are false. His Congressional testimony affirms that had he a better vantage point, he was prepared to shoot at Kevin Harris, the armed combatant posing an immediate threat to him, his team, and everyone at the scene.
He never said he would shoot Vicki Weaver, he said during Congressional testimony that he would have taken the same shot that Lon did if he had the same vantage point. Neither of them should have been on the ridge in the first place. They should have refused the unconstitutional ROE, and called their lawyers.
The fact is, they were told that these "crazies" had just gunned down a US Marshal in cold blood. My assessment of the whole massacre was that you had LEO's who finally were getting their chance to play commando, and what better opportunity than with a former Army SF Weapons Sergeant, who they have been told is manufacturing meth, making machineguns, and is a white supremacist, who by the way, has just murdered a US Marshal.
Putting myself into their shoes, and having done similar missions in a military capacity on a regular basis, we always wanted to know the quality of our intel. We had to follow very strict ROE, even to the point that it jeopardized our lives on multiple occasions.
Ruby Ridge is an incident that illustrates how the perverse actions of one agency can easily escalate into a massive abortion of epic proportions. Remember that this all started because the ATF wanted another CI to infil the Aryan Nation, and they felt that entrapment was a great way to get Weaver after he refused. This man was innocent, and just wanted to stay to himself with his family in their cabin (labeled a "compound" by the FBI).
If a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant and a few loyal friends/family wanted to really cause problems for the Feds, they would have never made it up the hill in the first place, and their air assets would have been wreckage at the bottom of the hill. This was just a family that wanted to be left alone.
If Dale Monroe's efforts can help LE agencies recognize the importance of seeking due diligence in establishing just cause for executing high-risk incident responses, by vetting the BS warrants of judges and US Attorneys who back the ATF, then he will be a miracle-worker.
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - LR1955 - 08-28-2013
Guys:
Until Bill gets a chance to read all of this and make a decision, I will close the thread. I think it is more directed against Troy Industries than it is towards the 2A.
It is already getting out of hand so I will lock it until Bill reads everything and makes a decision.
No offense intended towards LR52 or anyone else here.
And just for those who are scared of being banned. If a person insults me or Bill, or wantonly disobeys our requests, they will be banned for a period of time. Bill and I moderate on our time. We don't get paid for it and we don't have a lot of time to argue with people.
R1955
Sorry to Have to Bring this to Our Attention.... - bwaites - 08-28-2013
I tend to agree with LR1955 on this. While you can make anything firearms related into a 2A discussion, this is really more about government gone bad than about a 2A issue per se. It is firearms related, but its not related directly to a 2A challenge. Yes, Troy made some bad hiring decisions regarding the ex-Chicago cop that is anti-2A, but thats still not a 2A issue, because he doesn't impact anyones ability to exercise their 2A rights.
As for Horiuchi's companion shooter, well, that's a decision Troy may very well regret. I do believe that individuals may make mistakes, and that future actions may rectify those mistakes, but it does certainly put some shadow on his ability to teach proper response to threat.
I'm leaving the thread up so that people can make their own decisions on Troy, but will leave the thread closed to further comment.