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Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - RangerRick - 06-17-2012
Hi All,
Just thought I'd let you know how the Grendel performed at 600 and 1,000 yards the other day.
The North State Shooting Club in Butner, NC (http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/newindex.htm) had a warmup match Friday 6/15/12 for the NRA Long Range Regional, and matches Saturday and Sunday.
The NSSC has a great bunch of people and their practices and matches are open to anyone. There are some very friendly, top notch shooters there, and you can learn a lot.
If you are in the VA, NC, SC area, check them out. Their schedule for the year is here: http://www.northstateshootingclub.com/pdfs/NSSC_2012_Match_Program.pdf
They shoot on a 1,000 yard known distance (KD) range at Camp Butner, a National Guard training facility in Butner, NC.
Some of the guys told me they normally have more events but they haven't been able to schedule as many this year because the Guard is prepping units for deployment.
I've never really been a competition shooter, so I just wanted to get some long range shooting in with the Grendel and this is one of the few facilities where you can do that in Eastern NC.
I ended up learning a lot about doping the wind, neck tensioning, etc. from some of the guys there, so it was well worth it just for that.
Anyway, on Friday the warm up consisted of two 600 yard matches with 2 sighter shots and 20 for record shots in a 20 minute period.
That was followed by a 1,000 yard match with unlimited sighters and 20 for record shots in 30 minutes.
I had shot there at 600 before and had good results (for me anyway) at 600. My scope got screwed up and I didn't get good data at 1,000. So I was looking forward to trying 1,000 yards again.
I was shooting a Grendel with a 20 inch Satern barrel, 1:8.5 twist. They don't allow any muzzle devices on the line there, so I had nothing on the end but a thread protector. The rifle has a PRS stock, plain vanilla Harris bipod, Geissle trigger, and a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x50 with Mil reticle on a LaRue LT-158 mount with 10 MOA of down angle.
With that setup I shot as an F-Class shooter, prone, using the bipod and a sand bag under the butt.
There was no way I was going to be competitive with guys shooting purpose built F-Class rifles, but I was there to have fun and the guys there helped me get the most out of my gear.
I was shooting Hornady 123 AMax bullets hand loaded with 30.5 grains of AA2520 powder. C.O.L of 2.26
The conditions were nice, Sunny, 81 degrees, but the wind was a little dicey swinging at random from 10 to 2 o'clock all day, and gusting from 5 to 12 mph.
I had no trouble, as before, at 600 yards. My rifle is zeroed at 300 yards and I had to come up 3.4 mils to get on target at 600 yards.
I only have one arm so prone shooting is a little bit of a challenge for me. I shoot off of a table at my home club. So I spent a lot of the day trying to get a good body position so I didn't feel like I was doing one armed push ups.
Putting a sandbag under my empty shoulder helped, but I still ended up getting a lot of trembling after laying there for 10 or 15 minutes. By the end of the day I had figured out a few good techniques that I need to practice at home for the next time.
So, you guys can probably do much better than I did with similar gear.
By the second 600 yard match, I was in the bull once and 10 ring a few times but yanked a few shots and only got a 160 out of 200. But I was just glad to be shooting in the black.
The guy scoring for me was wondering if the Grendel would even make it to 1,000 yards with a 20 inch barrel without tumbling. He asked some of the other experienced shooters and they were pretty sure it would. I've seen videos from several guys on this forum shooting at 1,000 yards, so I though I had a good chance.
After the problems I had the last time I tried 1,000, though, I was not 100% sure the bullets weren't tumbling.
When my time came to shoot I cranked in another 7.0 mils on the scope from the 600 yard setting. The tables I had said 6.0 mils would do it, but they had been optimistic before.
It took me 7 shots to get in the black, and I ended up putting 8.0 mils on the scope to get it dead on target from the 600 yard setting.
Since it was a warmup match the guy keeping score for me was allowed to coach me and after he figured out that he had to look a lot higher to see the vapor trails than with the 308's and 7mm F-class guns, he waked me right onto the target.
With the wind out there, the light, relatively slow 6.5mm bullet, looked like a curve ball being thrown.
Anyway, after I got sighted in with the first 10 shots, I shot 92 out of a 100 on the last 10 shots, with several X's and 10 ring shots. The 10 ring on the F-Class 1,000 yard target is 10 inches in diameter.
I was helped a lot on the last 10 shots since the wind stayed relatively constant. I had also worked out a body position that reduced the fatigue and trembling.
The guy coaching and scoring for me was having more fun than I was. He couldn't believe that a Grendel on an AR-15 frame with a 20 inch barrel could shoot like that.
Like I say, I'm not going to be a competitive F-Class shooter with a 20 inch Grendel, but it was fun!
With this setup, load, and bullet, I have to come up 0.5 mil to go from 100 to 200 yards. Come up for 300 yards is 1.0 mil from the 200 yard setting.
To go from 300 to 600 yards I have to add 3.4 mils to the scope. To go to 1,000 yards I have to add 8.0 mils to the 600 yard setting.
That's a total of 12.9 mils from 100 to 1,000 yards. That's a drop of 464 inches, or about 38 feet.
With my scope and a 10 MOA mount, that gets me to within 4 clicks of the very top of the scope adjustment (1/10th mil clicks).
So you may want to get a 20 MOA mount if you want to shoot to 1,000 yards or beyond, or if you want to shoot heavier bullets to those ranges.
The ballistic tables I used with Hornady's published .510 BC for the 123 AMax weren't very accurate.
The best I could come up with using Ammo Guide's calculator was using a G1 BC of .420 and a muzzle velocity of 2500 fps. That matches the drops I observed. With Hornady's ballistic calculator (http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator), using a BC of .450 and a muzzle velocity of 2500 fps gives about the same results.
These were shot at a temp of 81F, altitude 800 feet.
That predicts the bullet will be going about 1,116 feet per second at 1,000 yards.
I ended up using 1.2 mils of windage adjustment for an estimated 7 mph wind at half value (10 o'clock) which was about 43 inches at 1,000 yards. That tracked pretty close to the table's windage estimation (41 inches) using 2500 fps and a BC of .420.
RR
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - Variable - 06-17-2012
Awesome Rick! Good stuff there. It sounds like you had a great time. I enjoyed just reading it. Valuable information on come up comparisons to computer numbers too. Thanks for sharing, and keep shooting!
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - ricsmall - 06-17-2012
Great info RR! Sounds like you had a great time, and did some great shooting! I look forward to trying mine out soon.
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - JASmith - 06-17-2012
Inspiring discussion!
Looking forward to hearing more!
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - ChellieWiles - 06-17-2012
Very good write up and one of the few long writes on here that I read all the way through. I'm sorry to hear about your arm, but it seems to me that it isn't stopping you from getting on target, HOO-RAH! I believe I read that the 123 amax's B.C. was .510 with a drop of 38 feet at 1000yards with MV of 2500fps was what you experienced. Take a look at the 108 Lapua Scenars, B.C. of .478 . I have had only about 22 feet of drop with a 300 yard zero to 1000 yards and similar wind drift. I can get those bullets to around 2800 fps no problem. Might be worth taking a look at for those 1000 yard comps. Anywho, it sounds like you had a blast. Great write up.
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - LR1955 - 06-17-2012
ChellieWiles Wrote:Very good write up and one of the few long writes on here that I read all the way through. I'm sorry to hear about your arm, but it seems to me that it isn't stopping you from getting on target, HOO-RAH! I believe I read that the 123 amax's B.C. was .510 with a drop of 38 feet at 1000yards with MV of 2500fps was what you experienced. Take a look at the 108 Lapua Scenars, B.C. of .478 . I have had only about 22 feet of drop with a 300 yard zero to 1000 yards and similar wind drift. I can get those bullets to around 2800 fps no problem. Might be worth taking a look at for those 1000 yard comps. Anywho, it sounds like you had a blast. Great write up.
CW:
You are getting 2800 with the 108 Lapua's from a gas operated Grendel?
What loads and barrel are you using?
LR1955
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - Drifter - 06-17-2012
Great post RR!
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - Armored Transport - 06-17-2012
Great post.....I just finished up my build and I to have a 20" heavy match tube on it. I am running the same mount you have under the HDMR 3.5-21X50 with the H-59 reticle. Look into the ATRAG system with the trueing option and you will save bunch of ammo trying to figure out where to start your aiming. So far I only have about 30 rounds down the pipe for break-in and I am in the 4's with AA Lupua 123 scenar. Looking forward to having some outings in the future like the one you have just posted about.......Just sounds like a GREAT time..
...Thank's again....Rick
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - ChellieWiles - 06-17-2012
LR1955,
I'm using a 22" JP cryo supermatch barrel with H322 powder in Lapua 6.5 Gren Brass and CCI small rifle magnums-#450. Upper and bolt is also JP and all bolt components are QPQ finish. Bullets are seated to .002" below mag length. Loads are hand weighed to 28.8grains of the H322 with the 108's. I've been questioning others as to why they aren't using this powder with bullets in the 100 grain range as the only pressure indicators i'm getting are slightly flattened primers...no cratering until I reach about 29.7 grains with the scenars. You can go to 30.4gr with the 100 ttsx's before cratering begins but I like the 2800-2850 velocities. I have noticed that if you push this powder too much (upper limit of the loads i'm posting) there is yaw, precession and nutation out to about 75-80yards but then stabilization if you are over 2950fps.
link to what i'm talking about
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
but, if you keep the 100-108's around 2800-2850fps, there isn't any of that.
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - Whelenon - 06-17-2012
That has to be one of the best range reports ever. Great read, sounds like you had a ball, thanks for sharing.
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - bobke - 06-17-2012
Rick-
As the others have said, excellent range report. For those of us who've not had opportunity to shoot at longer distances, appreciate the thoroughness and bump up the learning curve. Feel almost like I'd been there observing the shoot. Good work.
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - LR1955 - 06-17-2012
ChellieWiles Wrote:LR1955,
I'm using a 22" JP cryo supermatch barrel with H322 powder in Lapua 6.5 Gren Brass and CCI small rifle magnums-#450. Upper and bolt is also JP and all bolt components are QPQ finish. Bullets are seated to .002" below mag length. Loads are hand weighed to 28.8grains of the H322 with the 108's. I've been questioning others as to why they aren't using this powder with bullets in the 100 grain range as the only pressure indicators i'm getting are slightly flattened primers...no cratering until I reach about 29.7 grains with the scenars. You can go to 30.4gr with the 100 ttsx's before cratering begins but I like the 2800-2850 velocities. I have noticed that if you push this powder too much (upper limit of the loads i'm posting) there is yaw, precession and nutation out to about 75-80yards but then stabilization if you are over 2950fps.
link to what i'm talking about
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNBLST.html
but, if you keep the 100-108's around 2800-2850fps, there isn't any of that.
CW:
Just a note.
You can't have both nutation and precession at the same time.
I will let someone else try to get 2850 from a 108 Lapua out of a gas gun. Nothing special about the JP. I have one but won't attempt to replicate this test.
I did hit 2700 with a 120 Sierra out of an Overwatch one time. Can't remember the load but it was up there. Shot one round and stopped. I also got about 2750 from a 107 Match King using Reloader 10X. That time I shot about ten rounds before stopping. Both had a weird sound, weird recoil. The brass (Lapua) was toast.
LR1955
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - RangerRick - 06-17-2012
Thanks for the positive feedback guys. I guess this topic kind of touched a nerve.
The range I regularly shoot at goes up to 300 yards.
You guys out West who can just pull off the road and start shooting at 1,000 yards don't know how lucky you are.
I had better luck with the Hornady's than other brands at 300. The AMax'es were just a lot cheaper and did great at 300.
At longer ranges, though, the Lapua 123 Scenars may well do better. Everything I've heard about them would indicate that will be the case. They shoot fine at 300 yards, so the superior BC etc. should really show at 1,000 yards.
Since you only load one round at a time with F-Class shooting, I'll have more flexibility with C.O.L. too.
I've also been working up some loads with CFE 223 powder and have been getting about 60 fps better with the 123 AMax than my regular load of 30.5 grains of AA2520.
I haven't finished tinkering with that load yet, though, so I'll be curious to see how it performs at longer ranges.
I'll be curious to see if the combination of the 123 Scenar, CFE 22, and longer C.O.L. will be a significant improvement.
When it comes time to re-barrel, I'll be looking for a 24 if I keep up this type of shooting.
RR
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - RangerRick - 06-17-2012
Hi Guys,
How significant a factor is neck tension in long range shooting? How do you control for that other than using bushing dies?
Some of these F-Class guys anneal after every three shots to keep the necks uniform.
RR
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - RangerRick - 06-17-2012
ChellieWiles Wrote:Very good write up and one of the few long writes on here that I read all the way through. I'm sorry to hear about your arm, but it seems to me that it isn't stopping you from getting on target, HOO-RAH! I believe I read that the 123 amax's B.C. was .510 with a drop of 38 feet at 1000yards with MV of 2500fps was what you experienced. Take a look at the 108 Lapua Scenars, B.C. of .478 . I have had only about 22 feet of drop with a 300 yard zero to 1000 yards and similar wind drift. I can get those bullets to around 2800 fps no problem. Might be worth taking a look at for those 1000 yard comps. Anywho, it sounds like you had a blast. Great write up.
Hi Chellie,
I've only shot the 108 Scenars with AA2460. I was only able to get about 2650 fps out of them with a 20 inch bbl. I haven't tried H322, though.
I got better energies with the 123 Scenars. It might be worth revisiting. Some other guys have been getting good MV's with the CFE 223 in the lighter bullets too.
The published BC's on the bullets seem very unreliable, or the ballistic calculators are, or a combination of both.
I've heard several guys on here state that the 108 may be the best for long range. I'll just have to try it out.
RR
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - stokesrj - 06-18-2012
RangerRick Wrote:Thanks for the positive feedback guys. I guess this topic kind of touched a nerve.
The range I regularly shoot at goes up to 300 yards.
You guys out West who can just pull off the road and start shooting at 1,000 yards don't know how lucky you are.
I had better luck with the Hornady's than other brands at 300. The AMax'es were just a lot cheaper and did great at 300.
At longer ranges, though, the Lapua 123 Scenars may well do better. Everything I've heard about them would indicate that will be the case. They shoot fine at 300 yards, so the superior BC etc. should really show at 1,000 yards.
Since you only load one round at a time with F-Class shooting, I'll have more flexibility with C.O.L. too.
I've also been working up some loads with CFE 223 powder and have been getting about 60 fps better with the 123 AMax than my regular load of 30.5 grains of AA2520.
I haven't finished tinkering with that load yet, though, so I'll be curious to see how it performs at longer ranges.
I'll be curious to see if the combination of the 123 Scenar, CFE 22, and longer C.O.L. will be a significant improvement.
When it comes time to re-barrel, I'll be looking for a 24 if I keep up this type of shooting.
RR
Hi RR,
I've shot both the 123 Sceenar and the 123 A-Max at 1000 yards, I really couldn't tell much difference. Guys in the pits said they were both still supersonic so at least I know they are above 1,150 fps or so. Both loads would hold the 9 ring with most in the ten if it was relatively calm.
I shoot at Butner a few times a year but across the course from a sling haven't shot the long range match there. I just shot the Eastern Creedmoor along with my son in May and we both did well.
Did you run into my friend John Friguglietti, he would have been shooting a Tubb 2K in 6XC? I know he shot the match you were in. It sounds like you had fun and that is after all why we do this.
Bob
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - RangerRick - 06-18-2012
stokesrj Wrote:Hi RR,
I've shot both the 123 Sceenar and the 123 A-Max at 1000 yards, I really couldn't tell much difference. Guys in the pits said they were both still supersonic so at least I know they are above 1,150 fps or so. Both loads would hold the 9 ring with most in the ten if it was relatively calm.
I shoot at Butner a few times a year but across the course from a sling haven't shot the long range match there. I just shot the Eastern Creedmoor along with my son in May and we both did well.
Did you run into my friend John Friguglietti, he would have been shooting a Tubb 2K in 6XC? I know he shot the match you were in. It sounds like you had fun and that is after all why we do this.
Bob
Hi Bob,
I may have bumped into him, but I'm such a newbie to the group that I don't know many of the guys yet. I saw a guy with a Tubb 2K but didn't meet him. That may have been him.
One of he guys pointed out that of the 3 other guys in the relays on my lane, one was sponsored by Berger Bullets, another was the club champ, and the third guy had beat them on occasion. Talk about intimidating!
But they were great guys and I learned a lot.
Like you say, having fun is what it's all about. Thanks for the input on the AMax vs the 123 Scenar.
RR
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - ChellieWiles - 06-18-2012
I used different increments and had different results, but the specifics aren't too important to the data I've taken myself under my tolerances. An interesting thing I noticed from shooting on the east coast and west coast is max load variances. I figured that in Wyoming, the air was dryer so the propellant burned faster than it would on the east coast where our air has about 65% humidity so the load is a bit "damper" slowing down the burn rate. This is the only reason I can think of as to why my 5.56 loads a few years ago were so far off (maybe 3 grains due to overpressure with some powders) than what I had previously recorded.
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - Drifter - 06-18-2012
RangerRick Wrote:Hi Guys,
How significant a factor is neck tension in long range shooting? How do you control for that other than using bushing dies?
Some of these F-Class guys anneal after every three shots to keep the necks uniform.
RR
RR- I don't shoot competitively, haven't shot past 600 yards, and have no experience with annealing.
That being said, I do recognize the significance of consistent neck tension and its influence on accuracy. Reducing Grendel neck diameter 0.010"+ consistently in one step is a lot to ask. My approach is to use a standard full-length resizing die (Forster), followed by a Redding Competition Neck Bushing Die in 6mm PPC. This method would allow you to leave your current sizing die as is, and use the neck die for the finishing touch. I've used both Wilson and Redding bushings (Redding is undersized more so than Wilson), and prefer the Wilson since they seem to have a tad of flare at the bottom, avoiding the potential of a ring near the base of the neck. Also, I often see accuracy enhancements using a very light crimp with the Lee FCD.
Again, great post to open this thread. I might have to follow in your footsteps one of these days and visit the Butner facility.
Grendel at 600 and 1,000 yards - RangerRick - 06-18-2012
ChellieWiles Wrote:I used different increments and had different results, but the specifics aren't too important to the data I've taken myself under my tolerances. An interesting thing I noticed from shooting on the east coast and west coast is max load variances. I figured that in Wyoming, the air was dryer so the propellant burned faster than it would on the east coast where our air has about 65% humidity so the load is a bit "damper" slowing down the burn rate. This is the only reason I can think of as to why my 5.56 loads a few years ago were so far off (maybe 3 grains due to overpressure with some powders) than what I had previously recorded.
Interesting. I wonder if altitude could play a part? I wouldn't think so, but maybe pushing a lower mass of air out of the barrel affects things.
How do the 108 Scenars perform in the wind at 1,000? I would think the heavier bullets would do better.
RR