+- 6.5 Grendel Forum (https://65grendel.com)
+-- Forum: 6.5 GRENDEL DISCUSSION FORUMS (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: 6.5 Grendel Ammunition & Reloading (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=10)
+--- Thread: What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? (/showthread.php?tid=26149)
Pages:
1
2
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - v4lu3s - 12-24-2023
I like to use the SST bullets when handloading, I have very hot and accurate loads for .308 and 7.62x39. I was looking at the Sierra loading book, Nosler book, the Hornady book and the Hodgdon site. Then I looked at the Hornady SST box...2580 fps. So I opened the cartridge, weighed 30 grains of ball powder. The Hornady book says 31.2 grains of CFE 223 is good for 2500 fps and that is the fastest load they list! I also have BLC2, H355 and Shooter's World precision, but the CFE seems to give the best velocities.
Has anyone figured out what they are loading with that gets that velocity with that charge? I have only loaded a very few so far to test with and 31.2 and 28.8 grains of CFE 223 at 2.25 OAL are similar while the 31 grain load was a larger group at 100.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - Scrape hunter - 12-24-2023
My guess would be that manufacturers like Hornady, have access to powders and blends of powders that we don't as consumers don't ..
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - Lemonaid - 12-24-2023
There are some threads on the forum about this that might interest you, just use the forum search engine.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - v4lu3s - 12-24-2023
I am on the fence about Hornady using a custom powder unless it is great in multiple cartridges. It is not as if 6.5 Grendel is such a great seller that whey would likely be willing to do a custom blend if something off the shelf will work ok. The load data for AA2520 and CFE 223 seem to fall right in the right range and both are spherical which matches the physical appearance...
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - v4lu3s - 12-24-2023
Lemonaid Wrote:There are some threads on the forum about this that might interest you, just use the forum search engine.
There are lots of good threads but given multiple searches I have not found one that really touches on the factory loads or powder used in them. I think that given the low volume and limited loadings that are commercially available the powder is most likely something easily available to keep profits up.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - Lemonaid - 12-24-2023
https://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?26233-Mimic-the-factory-hornady-black-load&highlight=powder+hornady+black
The above link has one example of CFE 223 matching or slightly better than the factory for velocity. In my opinion it is close enough for a win.
If Hornady is using a blend, reloaders won't be able to use it so a close match is all we can hope for.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - kmon - 12-24-2023
v4lu3s Wrote:There are lots of good threads but given multiple searches I have not found one that really touches on the factory loads or powder used in them. I think that given the low volume and limited loadings that are commercially available the powder is most likely something easily available to keep profits up.
Good luck getting that information. It might very well be a blend or even powders that fall just outside of spec but in large quantities manufactures will get those and tweak their loadings to match but it will not be sold to reloaders since it will not match the published data.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - LRRPF52 - 12-25-2023
6.5 Grendel, .223 Rem, and .308 Win all share most of the same powders, so a commercial canister powder formulated for their other main cartridges might make the most sense from an industrial standpoint.
For the hand-loader, CFE223 and LVR will deliver the fastest velocities with 123gr bullets, with relatively low chamber pressure compared to other powders.
Youre already well-compressed before you hit the SAAMI MAP, but getting faster speeds than anything else.
For example, under a 123gr SMK (which is a lot longer than a 123gr SST, A-MAX, or ELD-M) you max out at 31.2gr due to case capacity, not chamber pressure, because that load is 48,700psi per Hodgdons pressure test data.
CFE223 is one of the most forgiving powders you can load in 6.5 Grendel in my experience. I ran some pressure ladders with it 2012, and was very surprised at how high it let me go before I saw an excursion from the trend in .3gr of charge weight increments.
That was under 123gr A-AMAX. You have to increase the COL to get more powder in the case, which also reduces pressure until you can build up to it. With 2.275 COL, it allows you to reach much higher velocities akin to adding 4-6 of barrel length.
I was loading through a 16 AA barrel at the time, and easily got into the mid-2550fps region. I only mass-produce the 31.2gr loads though, which run in the 47,000-48,000psi range, maybe even less with a Hornady bullet.
Sierra Match Kings tend to have jackets that resist being driven into the lands more, so they build pressure faster.
The Hornady and Hodgdons load data should be referenced when working with CFE223, but youll be in the 28.4gr to 31.2gr load range under a 123gr SMK per Hodgdons.
Hornady lists the 120gr GMX copper monolith along with the other 120-123gr cup and core bullets, so 31.2gr is the limit with the GMX, not the 120gr ELD-M, 123gr ELD-M, or 123gr SST.
Chamber dimensions and rifling profiles will determine what you are able to do.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - Happy2Shoot - 12-25-2023
Didn't Hornady give the load data on the side of the ammo box in the old days?
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - LRRPF52 - 12-26-2023
Happy2Shoot Wrote:Didn't Hornady give the load data on the side of the ammo box in the old days?
They did that for 6.5 Creedmoor, but I havent seen any Hornady 6.5 Grendel ammunition where load data was printed on the box. They may have done it with the quickly-discontinued 120gr A-MAX, but I never saw it and that is only speculative.
I have been buying Hornady 6.5 Grendel ammo regularly since no later than March of 2013. I found my earliest notes on 123gr A-MAX factory muzzle velocity readings I took from that Month/Year.
I started out hand-loading for it with Lapua brass and 123gr Scenars in 2009, bought some of the old Wolf Gold 123gr SP (garbage), and later started buying 123gr A-MAX, which was a great factory load.
I was mostly shooting .260 Rem for all my long range work at the time.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - kmon - 12-26-2023
I still have a few old boxes of a-max from shortly after saami and hornady released it. Will dig them out tomorrow. I do not remember but will check. In the woods hunting now with the GRR
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - kmon - 12-27-2023
Got this box in I think 2011 and it has moved a time or two been in storage and hauled around in the truck but still around. If not then it was not long after and is A-Max match as shown in the pics. Definitely no load data on this or the or the other 2 boxes of A-Max I have.
![[Image: full-3669-409453-resized_20231227_140419.jpeg]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/userpics/2023/12/full-3669-409453-resized_20231227_140419.jpeg)
![[Image: full-3669-409454-resized_20231227_140431_1.jpeg]](https://texashuntingforum.com/forum/pics/userpics/2023/12/full-3669-409454-resized_20231227_140431_1.jpeg)
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - Fess - 12-29-2023
As mentioned above, Hornady does not need to stick to publicly available powders. In one of their podcasts, the Hornady reps mentioned that they use something like 37 custom propellants from Saint Marks Powders. They also mentioned that they occasionally need to use substitutes when the desired propellant is unavailable.
FWIW, when the Grendel was first introduced, Bill Alexander mentioned that Alexander Arms was loading some of its ammo with a "non-cannister" propellant, so apparently smaller companies can get their hands on special propellants as well. It is possible that it was a batch of powder that just happened to be a little too fast or slow to be sold under its intended name.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - Fess - 12-29-2023
As mentioned above, Hornady does not need to stick to publicly available powders. In one of their podcasts, the Hornady reps mentioned that they use something like 37 custom propellants from Saint Marks Powders. They also mentioned that they occasionally need to use substitutes when the desired propellant is unavailable.
FWIW, when the Grendel was first introduced, Bill Alexander mentioned that Alexander Arms was loading some of its ammo with a "non-cannister" propellant, so apparently smaller companies can get their hands on special propellants as well. It is possible that it was a batch of powder that just happened to be a little too fast or slow to be sold under its intended name (AA2520, possibly?).
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - Fess - 12-29-2023
Happy2Shoot Wrote:Didn't Hornady give the load data on the side of the ammo box in the old days?
I think that was only with the 6.5 Creedmoor. It was developed as a 1000 yard target cartridge and they wanted to make it easy to match factory performance. Ironically, that was also about the time that they started with the Superformance loads, which used custom propellants not available to reloaders.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - v4lu3s - 12-29-2023
Wow talk about a lot of really detailed information it's very specific. Definitely more than I can read and absorb while sitting at a red light.
I really appreciate and thank everyone who has contributed. I did send an email to Hornady themself so if they contribute anything different or new I will be sure to share it.
.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - v4lu3s - 12-30-2023
LRRPF52 Wrote:6.5 Grendel, .223 Rem, and .308 Win all share most of the same powders, so a commercial canister powder formulated for their other main cartridges might make the most sense from an industrial standpoint.
For the hand-loader, CFE223 and LVR will deliver the fastest velocities with 123gr bullets, with relatively low chamber pressure compared to other powders.
Youre already well-compressed before you hit the SAAMI MAP, but getting faster speeds than anything else.
For example, under a 123gr SMK (which is a lot longer than a 123gr SST, A-MAX, or ELD-M) you max out at 31.2gr due to case capacity, not chamber pressure, because that load is 48,700psi per Hodgdons pressure test data.
CFE223 is one of the most forgiving powders you can load in 6.5 Grendel in my experience. I ran some pressure ladders with it 2012, and was very surprised at how high it let me go before I saw an excursion from the trend in .3gr of charge weight increments.
That was under 123gr A-AMAX. You have to increase the COL to get more powder in the case, which also reduces pressure until you can build up to it. With 2.275 COL, it allows you to reach much higher velocities akin to adding 4-6 of barrel length.
I was loading through a 16 AA barrel at the time, and easily got into the mid-2550fps region. I only mass-produce the 31.2gr loads though, which run in the 47,000-48,000psi range, maybe even less with a Hornady bullet.
Sierra Match Kings tend to have jackets that resist being driven into the lands more, so they build pressure faster.
The Hornady and Hodgdons load data should be referenced when working with CFE223, but youll be in the 28.4gr to 31.2gr load range under a 123gr SMK per Hodgdons.
Hornady lists the 120gr GMX copper monolith along with the other 120-123gr cup and core bullets, so 31.2gr is the limit with the GMX, not the 120gr ELD-M, 123gr ELD-M, or 123gr SST.
Chamber dimensions and rifling profiles will determine what you are able to do.
Wow that is a lot of really good information. I knew cfe 223 was a pretty forgiving powder as I have best results at near max load on 223 loads. It didn't occur to me about the monolithic bullet being the limiting factor on that load data. I have gone as high as 31.5 grans right now, but had disappointing results on 31.5, 31.3, 30.9, 30.7 and 30.5 when tested with my suppressor, the day before I had test 30.6, 30.8, 31 and 31.2 with good groupings but had not used the suppressor. Seems that I may have some sort of mismatch there that I need to figure out before wasting more materials.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - v4lu3s - 12-30-2023
I received a reply from Hornady, not a custom blend just a common commercial powder that has no direct match in the reloading market. I think it is likely something that they use on other cartridges to keep supply easier and cheaper. I would be disappointed but posting here first spurred some interesting insights that I had not found before.
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - LR1955 - 12-30-2023
v4lu3s Wrote:I received a reply from Hornady, not a custom blend just a common commercial powder that has no direct match in the reloading market. I think it is likely something that they use on other cartridges to keep supply easier and cheaper. I would be disappointed but posting here first spurred some interesting insights that I had not found before.
V4:
Doublespeak. The powder is a 'common commercial powder' yet has not match for handloaders.
Common, yet not common.
LR55
What powder is in Hornady SST factory load? - v4lu3s - 12-31-2023
LR1955 Wrote:V4:
Doublespeak. The powder is a 'common commercial powder' yet has not match for handloaders.
Common, yet not common.
LR55
Pretty much. It is physically undistinguishable from CFE 223. I took a pic of the powders side by side and unless I knew which bowl was which I would not have been able to tell them apart. I still suspect they use a common commercial cannister powder and by common it is one they use on multiple loads for economic scale.
The 6.5 123gr ELD-M bullet is also almost exactly the same as the SST. The ELD has no cannelure and a darker tip. Both the SST and ELD are the exact same length from base to tip and from base to ogive. The factory load in both appears to be the same powder and both are loaded to 30 grains.
The jump to rifling with both in my Odinworks barrel is 0.04" with measured OAL on both factory SST/ELD-M cartridges at 2.24" and 1.66" to ogive. Given that both bullets are secant ogive I suspect that loading to 2.26" might be more accurate.