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New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - dsbarrios1 - 08-25-2023
Hey guys, Im needing some assistance and hopefully I can find the right answers. I just built a 6.5G and I have a problem with it Flattening the primers and pierced Primers. I have a Aero Precision Lower with a Kynshot 5000 Hydraulic Buffer, BCA 16" upper with a seekins Adjustable gas block and a Odin Works Atlas 7 Compensator. At first I thought it was my ammo which isnt the best in the world, PPU Rifle Line 120gr, but then I switched to Hornady Black 123 gr and only 1 pierced primer out of 30 rounds but the primers were still flat. I plan on removing the 3 key changes and add 1 by 1, Buffer, Gas Block, and comp, to see if I can see a difference in the spent cases. When I first built the gun I never bothered to notice if I was having this issue as the thing had alot of recoil and decided to replace the above items. Any thoughts on where my issue may lie?[ATTACH=CONFIG]19906[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19907[/ATTACH]
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - montana - 08-25-2023
dsbarrios1 Wrote:Hey guys, Im needing some assistance and hopefully I can find the right answers. I just built a 6.5G and I have a problem with it Flattening the primers and pierced Primers. I have a Aero Precision Lower with a Kynshot 5000 Hydraulic Buffer, BCA 16" upper with a seekins Adjustable gas block and a Odin Works Atlas 7 Compensator. At first I thought it was my ammo which isnt the best in the world, PPU Rifle Line 120gr, but then I switched to Hornady Black 123 gr and only 1 pierced primer out of 30 rounds but the primers were still flat. I plan on removing the 3 key changes and add 1 by 1, Buffer, Gas Block, and comp, to see if I can see a difference in the spent cases. When I first built the gun I never bothered to notice if I was having this issue as the thing had alot of recoil and decided to replace the above items. Any thoughts on where my issue may lie?[ATTACH=CONFIG]19906[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19907[/ATTACH]
Check head space, firing pin protrusion and the bolt face firing pin I.D.
Firing pin protrusion should be .028 to .036..
Bolt face firing pin I.D. or hole should be .065 + or - .001
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - Klem - 08-25-2023
dsb,
Along with checking those measurements as Montana has prescribed can you tell us your load please. I ask this because there is cratering in some of the primers that have not pierced. Flattened, pierced, and cratered primers are classic symptoms of over-pressure. The unusual aspect here is the pierced primer in the Hornady factory ammo. Factory ammo should not be over-pressure, unless something else has caused the pressure to display at the primer.
Changing out the gas system is unlikely to help as the damage on show is caused before the bullet reaches the gas port. Whatever is causing this can also occur in bolt guns.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - LRRPF52 - 08-25-2023
dsbarrios1 Wrote:Hey guys, Im needing some assistance and hopefully I can find the right answers. I just built a 6.5G and I have a problem with it Flattening the primers and pierced Primers. I have a Aero Precision Lower with a Kynshot 5000 Hydraulic Buffer, BCA 16" upper with a seekins Adjustable gas block and a Odin Works Atlas 7 Compensator. At first I thought it was my ammo which isnt the best in the world, PPU Rifle Line 120gr, but then I switched to Hornady Black 123 gr and only 1 pierced primer out of 30 rounds but the primers were still flat. I plan on removing the 3 key changes and add 1 by 1, Buffer, Gas Block, and comp, to see if I can see a difference in the spent cases. When I first built the gun I never bothered to notice if I was having this issue as the thing had alot of recoil and decided to replace the above items. Any thoughts on where my issue may lie?[ATTACH=CONFIG]19906[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19907[/ATTACH]
You dont say. I would return the upper for a refund and buy something else, personally.
I have zero expectations from those price points, including safety.
If one blew up in my face, I would only blame myself.
If you want to tinker, you can do their job for them and try to diagnose the problem, which could range from incorrect firing pin protrusion and bolt dimensions, to a tight bore.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - VASCAR2 - 08-25-2023
Id color the bullet on a factory 123 grain black cartridge. Drop the cartridge into the chamber and see if it goes completely in the chamber. If it does raise the muzzle and see if the cartridge will fall out under gravity. If tapping on the side doesnt dislodge the cartridge use a cleaning rod to push the cartridge out. If color is rubbed off the bullet and needs help to push cartridge out of the chamber, likely an out of spec short chamber.
Short out of spec chambers is not uncommon on lower priced barrels and can be the result of worn cutters and/or poor QC.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - montana - 08-25-2023
LRRPF52 Wrote:You dont say. I would return the upper for a refund and buy something else, personally.
I have zero expectations from those price points, including safety.
If one blew up in my face, I would only blame myself.
If you want to tinker, you can do their job for them and try to diagnose the problem, which could range from incorrect firing pin protrusion and bolt dimensions, to a tight bore.
52 feeling a little salty today
All joking aside, he is absolutely right. When purchasing uppers, lowers, parts, (especially the barrel and BCG), potential customers should make sure the business they intend to give their money to has a good reputation for quality and warranty..
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - dsbarrios1 - 08-26-2023
Thanks guys for all the input, I chose BCA because they do have a stand up warranty and I wanted a budget build since its my first build. All the reviews I have seen on their website and online have been really positive so why not give them a chance. Anyhow I am back home in Texas and I pulled out the first batch of spent ammo that I ran through this gun and all the brass looks pretty decent. No pierced primers and no visible damage to the cases. This leads me to believe its something I changed. I have spoken to BCA and they have told me to send it in and they will recheck everything and replace anything that may be damaged. See the photo below of spent brass before the buffer, gas block and compensator.Ill have to add the photo later when I get on my computer. Cant find where to attach it on my phone.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - dsbarrios1 - 08-26-2023
[ATTACH=CONFIG]19908[/ATTACH]
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - montana - 08-26-2023
The buffer, gas block and muzzle compensator has nothing to do with pierced primers.. You need to send it back in or have some one with knowledge check your rifle over..
The primers will pierce based on a combination of three factors. There can be different causes for each of these factors..
Case pressure
Primer type/ thickness
Firing pin hole fit
I would take any reviews on line (especially from the manufacture) with a large dose of salt, case in point...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAuTHPdUchU&t=9s
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - LRRPF52 - 08-26-2023
dsbarrios1 Wrote:Thanks guys for all the input, I chose BCA because they do have a stand up warranty and I wanted a budget build since its my first build. All the reviews I have seen on their website and online have been really positive so why not give them a chance. Anyhow I am back home in Texas and I pulled out the first batch of spent ammo that I ran through this gun and all the brass looks pretty decent. No pierced primers and no visible damage to the cases. This leads me to believe its something I changed. I have spoken to BCA and they have told me to send it in and they will recheck everything and replace anything that may be damaged. See the photo below of spent brass before the buffer, gas block and compensator.Ill have to add the photo later when I get on my computer. Cant find where to attach it on my phone.
What were the temperatures when you had all the pierced primers? I just re-read you post and noticed this:
Quote:....as the thing had alot of recoil and decided to replace the above items.
If you notice a lot of recoil, something is off. Ive built a lot of lightweight 16 Grendels for people that are pussycats to shoot, even with light optics on them, never mind the 12 Grendels.
A tight chamber or bore and excess firing pin protrusion can cause pierced primers. Usually its an ammunition problem if you experience noticeable excess recoil.
You should not be seeing pierced primers across 2 different manufacturers ammunition.
Im wondering if its a combo of under-spec tolerances and hot ambient temperatures that caused your issues before, but this is just speculation with some measurements that really need to be done by the manufacturer.
The most affordable carbines and rifles I own are the ones that never give me trouble when I burn a tank of gas to and from the range, pay range fees for, run $100-$300 worth of ammunition through them, and spit out nice brass ready to be reloaded.
The initial price of the build or factory rifle is a fixed cost that is easy to control if I go with known, reputable companies.
There are uppers guys have sent me that I could not get to run or shoot accurately without a total barrel/bolt and sometimes bolt carrier and gas system replacement. Most of the time I have been able to get an upper shooting wonderfully with a few tweaks, but if the heart of the rifle or carbine is defunct, poorly-made, or incorrectly-specd, it ends up being a money-pit.
I dont know anyone who wants to spend all the variable costs with gas, range fees, ammo, and their time just to have a negative experience. Shooting should be fun.
This is why I rarely take risks with lower price-point products. I just cant take them seriously because they didnt take themselves seriously from the start.
Im on a budget like everyone else, with time being my most valuable asset.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - dsbarrios1 - 08-26-2023
Thanks montana, I appreciate everybodys input here. Im just putting out all the info on this build and using it as lessons learned. Im gonna send it back once I get back to North Carolina. Considering a Faxon barrel and bolt as the replacement.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - Zeneffect - 08-26-2023
I agree that the headspace or firing pin is out of spec. Having recently gone through cheap stuff with nothing but frustration I stumbled across an addage that really hit home and applies to this situation as well. "Only a rich man can afford a cheap scope" replace scope with upper in your case. Cheap is OK if you have the tools knowledge and experience to and inspect yourself, and fix yourself if needed... otherwise you will waste money on return shipping and lose time... or worse get injured.
Only the rich can afford that crap.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - LRRPF52 - 08-26-2023
dsbarrios1 Wrote:Thanks montana, I appreciate everybodys input here. Im just putting out all the info on this build and using it as lessons learned. Im gonna send it back once I get back to North Carolina. Considering a Faxon barrel and bolt as the replacement.
I have no relationship with Faxon, but so far, the barrels I used from them (that were sourced through the Forum Group buy) have been shooters, even at such low price points.
There were some with chamber issues that others got, which Faxon immediately took care of, but mine werent any of the few affected.
Both were 12 and shooters. My 12 Grendel is my grab-and-go now, after shooting it for the past 6 years.
Last month at the range, I made 3 consecutive hits on steel at 780yds, then made a 1st-round hit on a 12 plate at 900yds with that set-up.
Every time I go down there, I take it out, maybe shoot the 12 steel at 400yds just for formality, then start hitting the 780yd buffalo steel.
I also take the 17.6 Lilja Grendel, which has a much more pricey barrel from a 2014 group buy, and it is boringly-accurate as well.
I need to take the LaRue 18 Grendel out more but I dont have glass on it right now, even though I have 4 spare scopes I could put on it.
Its just so easy to grab the 12 in a little PDW/Carbine-sized soft case and throw it in the SUV, vs the longer rifle cases that are even bulky in spacious vehicles.
If any one of these was giving me problems, I would be upset about it. I expect to pull the trigger, see my hit on target, another round is chambered and ready to repeat, nice-looking brass comes out.
If I had to fiddle around with them, I would not be happy.
I basically dont trust many companies to get a rifle build right, and will rarely allow them the chance to prove me wrong after being eyeball-deep in ARs since the 1980s.
LaRue slipped one through on me, and that rifle is awesome, built like a vault. It came at a time where I had just spent 3 years only shooting the 17.6 Lilja Grendel every chance I got, and was quite satisfied, then wanted to see how 12 would do.
I had 2x 18 at that time, had built many of them, and was ready to go down to shorter barrels, so thats really the only reason I havent shot the LaRue as much as I should.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - dsbarrios1 - 08-26-2023
Good words of wisdom Zen, this has definitely been a lesson learned.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - Harpoon1 - 08-26-2023
dsbarrios1 Wrote:Hey guys, Im needing some assistance and hopefully I can find the right answers. I just built a 6.5G and I have a problem with it Flattening the primers and pierced Primers. I have a Aero Precision Lower with a Kynshot 5000 Hydraulic Buffer, BCA 16" upper with a seekins Adjustable gas block and a Odin Works Atlas 7 Compensator. At first I thought it was my ammo which isnt the best in the world, PPU Rifle Line 120gr, but then I switched to Hornady Black 123 gr and only 1 pierced primer out of 30 rounds but the primers were still flat. I plan on removing the 3 key changes and add 1 by 1, Buffer, Gas Block, and comp, to see if I can see a difference in the spent cases. When I first built the gun I never bothered to notice if I was having this issue as the thing had alot of recoil and decided to replace the above items. Any thoughts on where my issue may lie?[ATTACH=CONFIG]19906[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]19907[/ATTACH]
What is the origin of that PPU ammo? Specifically where and when did you purchase it? PPU recalled a bunch of their Grendel ammo several years ago, and then it was off the market for a while. Is it possible you purchased some of the old recalled ammo? I see you pierced a Hornady round too, so looks like more than one issue but, it also looks like the overwhelming problem was with the PPU???????
Recall Notice
https://ppu-usa.com/news/
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - LRRPF52 - 08-26-2023
Harpoon1 Wrote:What is the origin of that PPU ammo? Specifically where and when did you purchase it? PPU recalled a bunch of their Grendel ammo several years ago, and then it was off the market for a while. Is it possible you purchased some of the old recalled ammo? I see you pierced a Hornady round too, so looks like more than one issue but, it also looks like the overwhelming problem was with the PPU???????
Recall Notice
https://ppu-usa.com/news/
That was my first thought until I saw the Hornady, and you can tell these are newer PPU with the Small Rifle Primers.
I shoot the new PPU stuff a lot now after seeing some deals on it at $17/box of 20, and Im shooting CLGS 12 suppressed.
That 110gr round seems pretty spicy, is very flat-shooting even from the 12 Grendel. I made a 1st-round hit at 900yds with it on 12 steel, which tickled me quite a bit even after roughly 30 years of LR shooting. Would have tickled me from a 24 .260 Rem or any other cartridge/firearm as well.
Ive never pierced a primer with 6.5 Grendel that I can recall, certainly not in any of my own 7 different Grendels.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - Harpoon1 - 08-26-2023
LRRPF52 Wrote:That was my first thought until I saw the Hornady, and you can tell these are newer PPU with the Small Rifle Primers.
I shoot the new PPU stuff a lot now after seeing some deals on it at $17/box of 20, and Im shooting CLGS 12 suppressed.
That 110gr round seems pretty spicy, is very flat-shooting even from the 12 Grendel. I made a 1st-round hit at 900yds with it on 12 steel, which tickled me quite a bit even after roughly 30 years of LR shooting. Would have tickled me from a 24 .260 Rem or any other cartridge/firearm as well.
Ive never pierced a primer with 6.5 Grendel that I can recall, certainly not in any of my own 7 different Grendels.
Rgr that!
Ive never pierced a primer either, even with a bolt gun, and looking for the edge of the envelope!
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - lazyengineer - 08-27-2023
Harpoon1 Wrote:What is the origin of that PPU ammo? Specifically where and when did you purchase it? PPU recalled a bunch of their Grendel ammo several years ago, and then it was off the market for a while. Is it possible you purchased some of the old recalled ammo? I see you pierced a Hornady round too, so looks like more than one issue but, it also looks like the overwhelming problem was with the PPU???????
Recall Notice
https://ppu-usa.com/news/
The problem with piercings is they fire-etch and sharpen the firing pin tip, which then starts piercing other ammo too. For sure, discard that firing pin; regardless of anything else. The jet can also etch open the bolt's firing pin hole, creating a gap between the pin and the bolt face big enough for the primer to start failing there too - though that takes a while.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - Klem - 08-27-2023
If piercing in two different brands of factory ammunition discounts the factory, then leaving ammo in direct sunlight on a hot day is another possibility. Restricting bullet release with a short chamber neck or tight throat will also do it. Or, out of spec firing pin. And/or firing pin hole.
Again, this has nothing to do with the gas system and its parts.
Lazy, interesting your additional note on the firing pin tip wear. I've pierced primers while supercharging 223 to reach 1,000yds. It starts about 25K lbs over SAAMI. This looks like the same including the cratering. PTG sells Rem bolts with optional finer 0.062" tips (the standard is 0.075"), and narrower pin holes to match. Less clearance between the pin and the hole supports the primer at higher pressures. Also, all the 223 F Class shooters I know use 450 primers with their 0.025" thick cups. So, if the firing pin including its protrusion is in spec it could still be related, if the bolt's firing pin hole is too big and not supporting the primer.
New 6.5G Build and Pierced Primers - VASCAR2 - 08-27-2023
The PPU primers look like small rifle primers to me as they seem to be the same size as the Hornady SRP brass. The recalled PPU ammo all had large rifle primers. Might be a combination of factors like short chamber, hot ambient temperatures or an out of spec firing pin, firing pin hole. The bolt face and firing pin might have out of spec firing pin protrusion as mentioned before.