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School Me On Grendel Barrels - Printable Version

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School Me On Grendel Barrels - TapRackBang - 11-29-2022

Background info: I'm not new to firearms or assembling the AR platform, but will be my first 6.5 Grendel.

I'm looking to achieve a few things. Most important to me are reliability and accuracy (1-2 MOA). Think "duty rifle." I'd like to mitigate "thermal drift" as much as I'm reasonably able. I don't want anything that needs adjusting or could fail like an adjustable gas block or low mass carrier. I've already acquired a full mass JP 6.5 Grendel bolt and carrier.

I'm leaning toward an 18" barrel and a RLGS. I'm not entirely opposed to going with 20", but 18 seems like a nice compromise of size/weight and I'd prefer the RLGS. I've looked at Odin, JP, Criterion, Faxon, Lilja, Liberty (Satern), Rainier Arms Ultra Match, and Proof. I like the idea of a fluted barrel to dissipate heat a little faster, but honestly, I don't know how much that assists with heat and/POI shift. It's something I would like to be able to lug around if the need arose so weight is a factor, but I'm not considering carbon fiber due to price and my priorities.

Could someone recommend a good 18" RLGS barrel? I don't mind spending a little money. Buy once, cry once. That said, I can't justify $1K for a barrel on this particular project. I'd appreciate any good advice. You can let me know if my thinking is flawed, too. I won't cry. Much...

School Me On Grendel Barrels - tdbru - 11-29-2022

TRB,
i've been happy with my Faxon 20" gunner. I was trying to build a light weight but longer barreled AR. They do have 18 barrels both lighter weight profile or heavier weight profile. My rig shoots in your ballpark (1-2 MOA) depending upon load and bullet. There are better barrels, and there are worse barrels.

https://faxonfirearms.com/rifle-barrels/?_bc_fsnf=1&Barrel+Caliber=6.5+Grendel+Type+II

sixfiveoutfitters also has 18" barrels now and then. Looks like they're out of stock right now. https://www.sixfiveoutfitters.com

it appears you've looked at many of the AR Grendel barrel providers already.

regarding barrels, the better makers barrels will generally shoot smaller groups then lower cost high production barrels. and they'll be more expensive.

POI shift is mitigated with a free floating barrel setup as compared to an issue M16 kind of barrel setup. the thinner barrels will be a bit more whippier than the heavy barrels, but with a consistent load you should be able to find an accuracy node if you handload. Otherwise just shoot a box of everything you can find, which right now, may not be much.

good luck,
-tdbru

School Me On Grendel Barrels - Old Bob - 11-29-2022

Wilson Combat makes a fluted 18" 6.5 Grendel barrel but after just checking their website, the 18" barrel is out of stock (can be back-ordered). Their 20" barrel is available.

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/65-Grendel-Barrels/products/1044/

I have the 20 incher on my rifle. It's a good shooter with Hornady factory ammo -- just under 1.00 MOA with 123gr AMAX or ELD-M. I plan on doing some hand-loading eventually with bullets specifically made for hunting. If I can get 1 MOA, I'll be happy.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - tlen - 11-29-2022

BCA. Several options that won't break the bank.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - CJW - 11-29-2022

Another vote for Sixfiveoutfitters…..

School Me On Grendel Barrels - TapRackBang - 11-29-2022

tdbru Wrote:TRB,
i've been happy with my Faxon 20" gunner. I was trying to build a light weight but longer barreled AR. They do have 18 barrels both lighter weight profile or heavier weight profile. My rig shoots in your ballpark (1-2 MOA) depending upon load and bullet. There are better barrels, and there are worse barrels.

https://faxonfirearms.com/rifle-barrels/?_bc_fsnf=1&Barrel+Caliber=6.5+Grendel+Type+II

sixfiveoutfitters also has 18" barrels now and then. Looks like they're out of stock right now. https://www.sixfiveoutfitters.com

it appears you've looked at many of the AR Grendel barrel providers already.

regarding barrels, the better makers barrels will generally shoot smaller groups then lower cost high production barrels. and they'll be more expensive.

POI shift is mitigated with a free floating barrel setup as compared to an issue M16 kind of barrel setup. the thinner barrels will be a bit more whippier than the heavy barrels, but with a consistent load you should be able to find an accuracy node if you handload. Otherwise just shoot a box of everything you can find, which right now, may not be much.

good luck,
-tdbru

That's helpful, thank you. I always free float the barrel. I haven't used A2 handguards in a long time. I hate that damn clamshell anyway!



I just wanted to make sure I wasn't leaving anything off the table. I appreciate the responses!

School Me On Grendel Barrels - TapRackBang - 11-29-2022

tlen Wrote:BCA. Several options that won't break the bank.

Thanks!

BCA and Sixfiveoutfitters make me nervous with their price point.... :eek:

School Me On Grendel Barrels - VASCAR2 - 11-29-2022

I have an 18” Group Buy Faxon Monster logo barrel with mid length gas system. I live in Illinois where suppressors are prohibited. My 18” MLGS is properly gassed and a really good shooting rifle. I think the rifle length gas on an 18” barrel is wise if you plan on running a suppressor otherwise I think the MLGS is gtg with the proper size gas ports. The Satern Liberty 18” barrels have a reputation of having large gas ports which has caused issues especially combined with short chambers.

The 18” 6.5 Grendel makes a very versatile AR-15 and Lilja, JP, Precision Firearms and Rock Creek get very good reviews. Criterion, Wilson Combat, LaRue, Rainier, Shilen and Odin get good reviews.

The Faxon, Ballistic Advantage, PSA, Green Mountain Monster logo barrels are quality rack grade barrels but it is kind of luck of the draw on accuracy. The cheapest barrels have the most reports of poor quality examples and needing to be returned or replaced. I know there are other manufacturers of 6.5 Grendel barrels but the ones I mentioned get the most attention on this forum.

If you have to drive to the range and shoot factory ammo it is cheaper in the long run to buy a quality barrel. It gets expensive to shoot 200-300 rounds and a couple of range trips to find out you got a lemon barrel. Most quality barrels shoot very good from the start and don’t take a lot of rounds before accuracy settles in.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - TapRackBang - 11-29-2022

VASCAR2 Wrote:I have an 18” Group Buy Faxon Monster logo barrel with mid length gas system. I live in Illinois where suppressors are prohibited. My 18” MLGS is properly gassed and a really good shooting rifle. I think the rifle length gas on an 18” barrel is wise if you plan on running a suppressor otherwise I think the MLGS is gtg with the proper size gas ports. The Satern Liberty 18” barrels have a reputation of having large gas ports which has caused issues especially combined with short chambers.

The 18” 6.5 Grendel makes a very versatile AR-15 and Lilja, JP, Precision Firearms and Rock Creek get very good reviews. Criterion, Wilson Combat, LaRue, Rainier, Shilen and Odin get good reviews.

The Faxon, Ballistic Advantage, PSA, Green Mountain Monster logo barrels are quality rack grade barrels but it is kind of luck of the draw on accuracy. The cheapest barrels have the most reports of poor quality examples and needing to be returned or replaced. I know there are other manufacturers of 6.5 Grendel barrels but the ones I mentioned get the most attention on this forum.

If you have to drive to the range and shoot factory ammo it is cheaper in the long run to buy a quality barrel. It gets expensive to shoot 200-300 rounds and a couple of range trips to find out you got a lemon barrel. Most quality barrels shoot very good from the start and don’t take a lot of rounds before accuracy settles in.


Excellent input. I really appreciate it.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - LRRPF52 - 11-29-2022

Here’s how I break down barrel price point/value/performance:

Bartleins and Kriegers cut by Precision Firearms. You’ll be in the $675-$775 range depending on what you order and options.

Proof Research carbon-wrapped Bartlein in the $900-$1000 region.

Lilja turned and chambered by Precision Firearms for $675

JP Enterprises for $529 (included enhanced bolt)

Satern Cut-Rifled 6.5 Grendel $523

LaRue (complete uppers and rifles) $800-$2100

Shilen heavy match 20” for $510

Lilja drop-in barrels from Lilja $525-$665, or the industry sub forum here $435

Criterion cut by Precision Firearms for $345 (this is one of the best bangs for your money)

Alexander Arms $285-$330 fluted (another great deal)

Odin Works 20” $323

Wilson Combat $250-$305

Faxon $235-$319

SixFive Outfitters $150-$200


I have owned and/or tested samples of all of the above except for Wilson, Odin, and maybe Shilen. I might have built or Cerakoted a 20” Shilen once, can’t recall now. I have shot Wilson Combat .223 AR-15s before, and thought they were pretty much top of the line in the early 2000s. I modeled my build approach for ARs from the early 2000s off of Wilson in terms of fit/feel of the receivers, lighter weight/medium fluted barrels, and coatings with free-float of course.

The most accurate, precision bolt gun-level bug-hole shooting uppers and barrels in Grendel I have shot and tested have been Bartlein from Precision Firearms. We’re talking beyond giggle, into “nobody is going to believe me if I show them these groups” type accuracy.

Proof is great for a really lightweight rifle if you go the CF route, and they shoot extremely well too.

I have 22”, 17.6”, and 16.5” Lilja Grendels. The 22” is bull, heavy, fluted. The 17.6” and 16” are really lightweight Wasp profile barrels with .650” thin under the handguard, then step up to .750/.740” like an M16A2.

The 17.6” shoots 4rd groups into bug holes, 5rd into .75” to 1”, and 10rd groups into 1.2”-1.5”. I have shot 8” groups at 1000yds with it, recorded and witnessed.

The 16” Lilja shoots .5” with match ammo, .75” with PPU 120gr, and .8” with 123gr SST.

I built a lot of 16” and 18” fluted Alexander Arms uppers for people several years ago, and they were all shooters, very pleasant-handling even being so light. They shot .6” to .9” with different Hornady ammo, including 123gr A-MAX, 123gr SST.

My complete LaRue Stealth 6.5 Grendel 18” FDE limited run rifle shoots great as well. The barrel is more of a heavy/medium contour and the rifle is fit superbly-well, with lots of attention to detail you have to hold and feel to appreciate. Wish he still offered that. The handguard mate-up to the upper receiver doesn’t touch the barrel nut at all, and the action is super slick. Funnel mag well and billet receiver fit is really tight, and the furniture is really nice.

I have a 12” build and did another one using the same barrel from Faxon through the forum group buy. Both of these 12” Grendels shoot anywhere from .7” to 1” at 100yds with multiple factory and hand loads, including 123gr ELD-M, 90gr TNT from Federal, and 107gr SMK on 8208 XBR. The only load that shot outside of 1” for me so far was the Federal 120gr Open Tipped Match American Eagle, but I have still used that to shoot steel buffalo at 800yds 9/10 hits.

Just off the top of my head, if money isn’t a concern, the 20” Proof is nice for both accuracy and lightweight.
For no-BS super accuracy, the Precision Firearms Bartlein, Krieger, and Lilja options are bragging rights shooters.

JP Enterprises makes a light contour, heavy fore end barrel that can have the ventilator fins attached to it.

For mid-grade performance and price, the AA and PF Criterion are great, along with LaRue.

For economy price but quality and correct dimensions in critical areas, Faxon and SixFive Outfitters can’t be beat.

Avoid things that are lower than that unless it’s a special sale from one of the others I mentioned. There are a few companies I have bad experiences with that I didn’t list or mention.

It’s hard to go wrong with anything in the above list, as long as your accuracy expectations align with the price point.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - TapRackBang - 11-30-2022

LRRPF52 Wrote:Here’s how I break down barrel price point/value/performance:

Criterion cut by Precision Firearms for $345 (this is one of the best bangs for your money)

Sir. I have been doing message boards for cars/guns since the 90s. This is probably the most informative, resourceful, comprehensive response I have ever received.Many, many thanks. Much obliged.

I'm thinking, given the data you've expertly disseminated, it's really difficult to not opt for the PF cut Criterion barrel. For my purposes, it'll be as accurate as my needs call for, fluting is an option, and given I won't be on a bench, it'll probably outshoot me.

As no good deed goes unpunished, I have one inquiry lingering. The PF Criterion utilizes an ILGS. While I don't plan on running it suppressed right now or even permanently in the future, it's a possibility I'd like to leave the door open for. It's a little less dwell time than a RLGS. Assuming no adjustable block, is an H2 buffer the proper choice without a suppressor? H1?

You've already been of more assistance than anyone could reasonably expect. I truly appreciate it. Most online forums have devolved into name calling and terrible opinions based on marketing.

Thank you all. Truly. This place is awesome.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - Zeneffect - 11-30-2022

Can't go wrong with a criterion. Every one I own is a shooter.

Can't complain about the bore quality either...

https://youtu.be/fdSv0xJk1DM

After cleaning, few hundred hot rounds.

H2 is my go to for mid-length and carbine + super42 spring (run that spring on everything)

That being said, I always convert h1 to h2, I don't buy the h2 outright. I like the idea of being able to swap back if i know I'm going to use lighter loads as it won't cycle reliably (55gr hsm blue thrill .223, cold only) but I never have.

https://geissele.com/amfile/file/download/file/da1b1996a84774c4fd12769d09d6a50d/product/497/&ved=2ahUKEwiS8oK0sdb7AhVQD0QIHV2VAycQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2aJtoY5zSyMcBhEFYOiW3H

With h2, I think reliability will be sub average through all weather conditions. As things get colder, the gas system will be less efficient and it might not be enough of you are running anything lighter than a 120gr pill.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - LRRPF52 - 11-30-2022

TapRackBang Wrote:Sir. I have been doing message boards for cars/guns since the 90s. This is probably the most informative, resourceful, comprehensive response I have ever received.Many, many thanks. Much obliged.

I'm thinking, given the data you've expertly disseminated, it's really difficult to not opt for the PF cut Criterion barrel. For my purposes, it'll be as accurate as my needs call for, fluting is an option, and given I won't be on a bench, it'll probably outshoot me.

As no good deed goes unpunished, I have one inquiry lingering. The PF Criterion utilizes an ILGS. While I don't plan on running it suppressed right now or even permanently in the future, it's a possibility I'd like to leave the door open for. It's a little less dwell time than a RLGS. Assuming no adjustable block, is an H2 buffer the proper choice without a suppressor? H1?

You've already been of more assistance than anyone could reasonably expect. I truly appreciate it. Most online forums have devolved into name calling and terrible opinions based on marketing.

Thank you all. Truly. This place is awesome.

That’s why we charge so much for forum membership! :o

If you go with Intermediate Length Gas System on an 18”, it has more ideal plug dwell time compared to MLGS, if shooting 120-130gr projectiles with slower-burning ball powder (common canister powder from manufacturers).

MLGS is great on 14.5” and 16” Grendels, as well as 5.56 NATO.

MLGS 18” is more ideal for 95gr-115gr projectiles with faster powder, though I almost exclusively shoot 120-123gr from my 3x 18” Grendels.

One thing I have seen with hand loads in the 18” MLGS is that if I load with more case fill towards the upper end, the cyclic rate rises into or over the edge of the optimum window of operation.

I actually installed a Bootleg Adjustable Gas carrier into my 17.6” MLGS Grendel for that reason, to choke the gas flow in order to slow down the cyclic rate with one of my CFE223 loads under the 123gr A-MAX.

If I could go back, I would have spec’d out 2 of my 18” Grendels with ILGS or RLGS, and leave one MLGS.

The 95gr Lehigh Controlled Chaos hand loads I have tested behaved exceptionally-well though, with no real felt recoil and a 1.4” 5rd group at 200yds from my lightweight 17.6” Lilja Grendel barrel.

There are detailed discussions on this in the 6.5 Grendel Handbooks we wrote, with diagrams on the different gas system lengths and what type of behavior to expect from each.

Barrel length and velocity
I will also say that I haven’t seen enough of a performance difference to justify 18” over 16” or even 14.5”, but 18” does handle nicely with the right barrel profile.

I have recorded the following average velocities 15ft from the muzzle:

12” Faxon Group Buy Barrels
90gr TNT 2683fps
120gr Federal OTM 2384fps

16” AA barrel
123gr Scenar 2452fps
123gr A-MAX 2439fps
120gr SMK 2470fps

17.6” Lilja Grendel
90gr TNT 2893fps (10 shot sample)
120gr Federal OTM 2484fps (20 shot sample)
120gr Scenar-L 2511fps
123gr SST 2457fps

18” LaRue Stealth Rifle
123gr Hornady American Gunner 2441fps
123gr A-MAX on 31.2gr CFE223 2519fps


Even though I started out shooting a 16” AA and have built many of them, and still have the Lilja 16”, for some reason I shoot the 17.6” Lilja and 18” LaRue more. Could be just down to not having the right optic mounted on the 16” though, because it feels great in the hands with that Wasp profile barrel. There were only a few of the Wasp 16” pipes made for the original Lilja group buy we did here, and I don’t think Lilja ever did them again.

The recoil behavior from the 18” MLGS is manifest in the bolt carrier having more gas flowing into it due to the added plug dwell time, whereas a 16” MLGS behaves nicely, assuming a .076” gas port for each. Neither should have a port larger than .076”.

I have tested 18” MLGS barrels that had .094” gas ports, which really needed adjustable gas turned almost all the way down to choke them, just to get them to function. One such sample I could not get to function in the cold. It either ran with excessive cyclic rate, or short-stroked. I spent more money driving to the range and feeding it than it was worth, which reinforces the recommendations to buy from a reputable barrel maker.

It’s just not worth your time and money to roll the dice or bet on known non-performers.

Never once have I ever said, “Gee, I sure wish I had spent less on this Bartlein, Lilja, Criterion, etc. barrel!”, after experiencing nothing but boring reliability and superb accuracy.

When I used to shoot 2-3x week at a local range for load development or zero confirmation, I typically would bring back targets with tighter groups than almost every bolt gun shooter there. You can tell when you walk down the pit by looking a what everyone’s groups actually are, versus what gets cherry-picked.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - LRRPF52 - 11-30-2022

For buffers and springs, Bill A. said he really wanted people to be able to buy a complete upper from him and drop it onto their existing lower without changing anything, and I can say that every combination I have tested on carbine lowers with 2.9-3.0oz buffers and standard springs has worked when looking at 16” MLGS, 18” MLGS, and 20” RLGS uppers.

I did a test one day where I had built, accurized, and Cerakoted 3 different 20” RLGS set-ups for 3 different friends.

One had a standard carbine RET with 2.9oz buffer, standard carbine spring.

The next had a carbine RET and H2 buffer, standard carbine spring.

The other had a rifle RET, rifle 5.2oz buffer, rifle spring.

I also built a 20” with an A5 RET, A5 mid-weight buffer, and rifle spring.

I didn’t notice too much of a difference between them all in cyclic rate and ejection patterns, but the heavier buffered systems with longer RETs felt smoother.

With the 12” Grendels, I have never used a standard carbine spring. I have either used a short stiff spring that came with the Maxim PDW kit, with its tiny 2.9oz buffer, or an extra power carbine spring with standard carbine buffer in a standard carbine RET.

The 12” Grendel with the Maxim PDW mini RET and stiff spring felt like one of the best-balanced gas system/recoil system AR-15s I have ever handled, especially suppressed.

That combo with CLGS, stiff spring, the Bootleg carrier fully choked, and suppressed felt amazing shooting 90gr TNT.

On my first AA 16” MLGS Grendel with .076” gas port, I used a Spike’s ST-T2 Tungsten powder-filled buffer and standard spring.

What I recommend now is to use an extra power carbine spring, a standard weight buffer, and the Bootleg Adjustable Gas Carrier.

Combined with the correct gas port and sealed gas block/gas tube (harder to do for a DIY-er), you will end up with a very smooth and reliable set-up.

If I was an AR-15 manufacturer, the Bootleg Adjustable Gas Carrier would be central to my TDP, with tightly-enforced specs on everything else.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - Serenitynow - 11-30-2022

LRRPF52
What extra power carbine springs are good ?
I see lots of manufacturers making them. Just wondering if one or 2 stand out in the price/performance category.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - TapRackBang - 12-01-2022

Ordered. Now the wait begins. Thanks, everyone!

6.5 Grendel PF Criterion Barrel

Options:
• Options: 18 inch (includes Intermediate Gas Tube) (+$20.00)
• Options: Medium HBAR Profile .750 Gas Block size
• Options: 6 Fluted Barrel (+$125.00)
• Options: Nitride Barrel (adds 2-3 weeks to order) (+$50.00)
• Options: Dimple Barrel for Standard Low Profile Gas Block (+$20.00)

School Me On Grendel Barrels - LRRPF52 - 12-01-2022

Serenitynow Wrote:LRRPF52
What extra power carbine springs are good ?
I see lots of manufacturers making them. Just wondering if one or 2 stand out in the price/performance category.

The one I used for my 12” with standard carbine RET came from a Franklin Armory buffer kit my late brother had.

Springco is usually the go-to for people looking for added spring weight AR-15 action springs.

I also have the JP Silent Captured Spring in one of my Grendels, which comes with several springs to tune it to your liking.

School Me On Grendel Barrels - CJW - 12-01-2022

TRB you really said some nice things about us. Thanks for the comments….

The boys on this board are the real deal, no BS.


Chuck

School Me On Grendel Barrels - TapRackBang - 12-01-2022

CJW Wrote:TRB you really said some nice things about us. Thanks for the comments….

The boys on this board are the real deal, no BS.


Chuck

I can see that! Thank you!

School Me On Grendel Barrels - Serenitynow - 12-01-2022

Springco is usually the go-to for people looking for added spring weight AR-15 action springs.

Blue or Red ?