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Failure to go completely into battery - Printable Version +- 6.5 Grendel Forum (https://65grendel.com) +-- Forum: 6.5 GRENDEL DISCUSSION FORUMS (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=3) +--- Forum: 6.5 Grendel Troubleshooting (https://65grendel.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=15) +--- Thread: Failure to go completely into battery (/showthread.php?tid=24985) |
Failure to go completely into battery - oyster - 09-30-2022 Hi Everyone, Hopefully the brains here can help me. I've got a AR15 Parts.com upper, 18" SS mid length gas system w/ a BCA BC and Sanders bolt, Superlative Arms AG, a JP silent capture buffer and H2 weight and I run a suppressor. This sits on a RRA lower. After about 750-1000 rounds with no problems the following issue started to occur(I shoot factory ammo, Hornady and PPU) - I would fire a round and assume the next round was chambered, pull the trigger and "click". Then assume it didn't pick up a round so I pull the charging handle let go pull the trigger and no click. I then see the bolt only two thirds forward. Apparently after my first shot the bolt ejected the spent round, pushed the next round into the camber but the bolt itself didn't go all the way into battery, just enough to reset the trigger. So, when I pull the charging handle back and let go the bolt starts to push the next round out of the mag, the nose follows the feed lip and jams under the case still in the chamber. Shortly there after bad words are said since this is night and pigs/deer are probably running everywhere. I've taken the whole BCG apart, cleaned, greased/oiled and reassembled. I bought a chamber honer and did that. Sometimes this helps for a few shots but then it's back to this. This week when it happened after I dropped the mag and did a few function test with the charging handle the bolt would slam to a stop before going into battery. From what I could tell it almost looked like the bolt was out of synch and not camming over to miss the lugs on the extension. Not sure if that's possible. Thanks for any help. Jay Failure to go completely into battery - lazyengineer - 09-30-2022 Picture? I'm not sure what 2/3 closed means, but if that means the BCG is only 2/3 the way forward in the ejection port, that sounds like a bullet nose hitting the breach face or something- which I haven't really seen before. Failure to go completely into battery - oyster - 09-30-2022 lazyengineer Wrote:Picture? I'm not sure what 2/3 closed means, but if that means the BCG is only 2/3 the way forward in the ejection port, that sounds like a bullet nose hitting the breach face or something- which I haven't really seen before. Yes, that's when it picks up another round and it try's to shove it under the round already in the chamber, that's the secondary problem. The primary problem is when the BCG pushes a round from the mag but the bolt stops right at the face of the locking lugs on the extension, so not quite into battery. I'm causing the secondary problem by trying get another round loaded. Failure to go completely into battery - LRRPF52 - 09-30-2022 Im going to try to graph out the configuration of your rifle using text, but I just want to understand the order of components. JP SCS with H2 weight buffer installed on the captured guide rod assembly (What spring weight did you use?) BCA Bolt Carrier Sanders Armory Bolt 18 Stainless Barrel with Mid Length Gas (What barrel brand is it and whats your gas port diameter?) Superlative Arms Adjustable Gas Block Suppressor (Whose can is this? Bore diameter, high-efficiency vs flow-through?) Failure to go completely into battery - LRRPF52 - 09-30-2022 Heres what I will say about 18 MLGS and suppressors: I have 3x 18 MLGS 6.5 Grendels. I also got a suppressor to specifically suppress 6.5 Grendel, mainly my 12 Grendel. I probably will never put a high-efficiency suppressor on any of my 18 MLGS Grendels. Flow-through suppressors I will consider. If I had 18 RLGS 6.5 Grendel, then I would have zero reservations about doing it. 18 Intermediate Gas (Precision Firearms offers this) would also be fine, and I would use the Bootleg Adjustable Gas for any of them. 18 MLGS already has more plug dwell time than I prefer. It works great with 95gr V-MAX to 115gr, but starts to push towards the edge of the happy cyclic rate window as you use 120-130gr, especially with medium-slow ball powders. There are tons of them out there working fine with that ammo, but I think a more forward gas port location is ideal for that barrel length. The moment you put a high efficiency suppressor on an 18 MLGS, you really stress the system because you just added an accumulator to the muzzle. Adjustable gas really becomes a necessity at that point, which you have. One thing Ive noticed with after-market adjustable gas blocks and gas blocks in general is that they are built to be slip-fit, not press-fit. Set screws are suppose to take up the tension and pull the top inner diameter of the block against the top of the journal, and provide a gas seal that way. This is not really ideal for the AR-15 or any gas-operated system with a manifold (gas block). You were able to find reliability for 750-1000 rounds, which is great. Now something has changed and youre getting FTFeed, presenting as the bolt carrier group not going into battery. When you say you "bought a chamber-honer and did that, can you talk a bit more about that? Failure to go completely into battery - LRRPF52 - 09-30-2022 How much lubrication do you use and what kind? What were the temperatures during the hunt? A dry gun, especially running suppressed can cause FTFeed. Do you have a Crane O-ring around your extractor spring? For more detailed troubleshooting, you can inspect: 1. The JP SCS to ensure the retaining pin hasnt come loose 2. Your bolt carrier gas key has not come loose ( I wouldnt personally trust parts from that vendor. I have become more jaded on who I order parts from.) 3. Your gas rings for any wear, pitting, shearing, flaking 4. Your carrier bore, looking for any rough texturing of the inner surface 5. Your fire control group pocket, looking for signs of soot deposit 6. You mentioned a RRA lower. Do you by-chance have a Rock River Arms 2-stage trigger in it? (I have had them hang up the bolt carrier group in the DPMS LR-308, but not AR-15s.) 7. Did you change to a different magazine? Have you disassembled and cleaned your magazines lately? Is the spring inside your magazine broken? (This has happened before with either ASC or CProducts on one occasion if I recall. Its been a while.) 8. Anything funky going on with your magazine catch, Cerakoted lower, magazine not seated fully? 9. Take your stripped bolt carrier with no other parts in it. Slide it back and forth inside the upper receiver to feel for any binding or grinding, stops in the raceway. 10. Does your bolt bind up with the barrel extension when articulating through the action and into battery? (Weve seen more and more of this in the after-market AR-15 and AR-10 world lately.) 11. Is your gas tube flange worn down or clipping the carrier key? If you look at the gas tube inside the upper receiver, a worn tube flange will look like this:
Failure to go completely into battery - montana - 09-30-2022 oyster Wrote:This week when it happened after I dropped the mag and did a few function test with the charging handle the bolt would slam to a stop before going into battery. From what I could tell it almost looked like the bolt was out of synch and not camming over to miss the lugs on the extension. Not sure if that's possible. Sounds like your barrel may have clocked in the upper. Cycle the action slowly and see if the bolt lugs are hitting anywhere on the outer lugs of the barrel extension, you should be able to feel and hear if this is occurring..If you have a Mid West Ind URR Upper Receiver Rod, you can use it as a gauge to test for a clocked barrel. If this is the problem, then we can go from there.. Failure to go completely into battery - Klem - 10-01-2022 Oyster, My initial impression is that it needs a damn good clean and lube. I read you've done this, but I mean pulling it all apart - like the ejector plunger and extractor off. Checking to make sure the bolt can cam and firing pin protrudes properly. The inside of the extension and around the lugs are free of grit. Carbon is off all the hidden parts like the shoulder inside the mouth of the carrier. If not this, sounds like there is either (1) less gas to cycle, or (2) more friction on the cycling system. Maybe the recoil buffer is not as free to move as before. With the hammer compressed, pulling the bolt out of battery slightly and letting it back into battery without having to let it go should be smooth and without the need to pull it all the way back, or needing to use the bolt assist (without ammo involved). You can do this quickly back and forth a few times after cleaning, and before using. Failure to go completely into battery - oyster - 10-03-2022 Thanks for all the replies! Sorry for the late response, I've been dealing with some minor clean up/repair after Ian just blew through. I'll get back to everyone shortly (back to work now) Jay Failure to go completely into battery - oyster - 10-04-2022 LRRPF52 Wrote:Im going to try to graph out the configuration of your rifle using text, but I just want to understand the order of components. I don't recall ordering a specific spring for the SCS just the H2 buffer for an AR15, also this is on a A2 buttstock. Not sure what barrel brand AR15.com uses and I haven't measured the gas port I'm running a SilencerCo Harvester 30 Thanks Jay Failure to go completely into battery - oyster - 10-04-2022 "When you say you "bought a chamber-honer and did that, can you talk a bit more about that?" My thought process was perhaps the chamber had gotten rough or perhaps a carbon build up and was making it harder for the extraction process to occur and therefore throwing off the whole system. I bought a Flex -Hone for 6.5 G http://www.brushresearch.com/brush-types.php?c1=4 and followed the instructions for honing the chamber. Can't say it did anything for this issue since it keeps happening. Failure to go completely into battery - oyster - 10-04-2022 LRRPF52 Wrote:How much lubrication do you use and what kind? Temperatures were 80's at night (I'm shooting pigs/deer for farmers) but this has happened when its 40 too. No O-ring on the extractor spring JP SCS is GTG Carrier key good, was loose when I first got it but retightened it and staked the screws. I also have a Lantac Enhanced BCG I was thinking about changing out to. Any thoughts? Gas rings look good, splits not lined up Some soot in the FCG but not terrible, trigger functions well. Yes it is a RRA 2- stage trigger. E-lander mags, cleaned about 3 months ago. Mag catch seems to be functioning properly Gas tube flange is showing signs of wear so I'm ordering a new one today. I have everything apart right now so I will test the BCG in the receiver and extension this evening. Jay Failure to go completely into battery - oyster - 10-04-2022 Thanks Klem. I'll recheck all this this evening. Jay Failure to go completely into battery - chatterbox - 01-28-2023 I had the same problem and found that it was two problems: 1. Broken extractor 2. Undergassed. New extractor, and a good cleaning, fixed the first and an adjustable gas block fixed the second. Failure to go completely into battery - montana - 01-28-2023 chatterbox Wrote:I had the same problem and found that it was two problems: 1. Broken extractor 2. Undergassed. New extractor, and a good cleaning, fixed the first and an adjustable gas block fixed the second. Adjustable gas blocks do not increase barrel port pressure, they can only restrict it.. Failure to go completely into battery - chatterbox - 01-28-2023 Sorry, but it did increase the prot pressure. It is possible that the old gas block was not properly positioned, thus blocking the port. And when I properly installed the adjustable gas port there was more pressure available. However, this can only be true if the Superlative Arms gas block's instructions are backward, that at 4.5 full turns the port is barely opened and as the adjuster is backed off the port opens more fully. Beats me, but whereas I was undergassed before the adjustable gas block, the rifle was functioning perfectly at nearly fully opened. Failure to go completely into battery - montana - 01-28-2023 chatterbox Wrote:Sorry, but it did increase the prot pressure. It is possible that the old gas block was not properly positioned, thus blocking the port. And when I properly installed the adjustable gas port there was more pressure available. However, this can only be true if the Superlative Arms gas block's instructions are backward, that at 4.5 full turns the port is barely opened and as the adjuster is backed off the port opens more fully. Beats me, but whereas I was undergassed before the adjustable gas block, the rifle was functioning perfectly at nearly fully opened. Adj gas blocks will actually leak more gas than a standard gas block just by design and no, they don't increase barrel port pressure, they can only restrict it.. No matter how a gas block is installed, correctly or incorrectly the barrel gas port pressure remains the same..I'm not trying to be difficult, but what you are saying is not correct and gives the novice the idea adj gas blocks can increase barrel port pressure when it is physically impossible. Re-aligning a clocked gas block that was choking the rifle system's available barrel port pressure is different than increasing the actual barrel port pressure.. Failure to go completely into battery - chatterbox - 01-28-2023 True, but installing the adjustable gas block did solve the problem, in this instance. Another plus is that, after installing the gas block, my group size dropped from 1.25" down to .75" at 100 yards. Failure to go completely into battery - montana - 01-28-2023 chatterbox Wrote:True, but installing the adjustable gas block did solve the problem, in this instance. Another plus is that, after installing the gas block, my group size dropped from 1.25" down to .75" at 100 yards. No, the adj gas block did not correct your problem, properly installing the adj gas block solved your problem..If you would have properly installed a standard gas block, it would have also corrected your problem.. |