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+--- Thread: Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR (/showthread.php?tid=24745)
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-25-2022
New member - first post. Thanks for letting me into the group
I'm a builder & cert armorer but actually shoot very little and know I'll get torn up over that but such is life. Only range within an hour is $1,850/year member-only lol. I prepping for my first non-5.56 build and have chosen 6.5G. My intention is to build a sub-moa weapon that can reach 600+ yards while still at a good velocity to keep a relatively flat trajectory at distance and stretch my danger space. I had started out wanting to get into 6.5C bolt action but I'm a 3+ hour drive to the closest 1,000 yard range (Tidewater VA - closest I can track down is Quantico). So I gave up on that and decided to stay inside what I'm familiar with - AR platform. Once I researched all the available cartridges it was an easy choice (given the ARC is really still boutique/rare ammo).
I don't hunt anymore so have no specific game target in mind. Would be mostly a range gun. After a couple week's research and reading I need your help. I am not a reloader/handloader. I intend to use off-the-shelf ammo which I realize could lead me to an moa weapon instead of a sub-moa weapon. Hoping to end up using Hornady ELD 123grain but will experiment to see what works best.
The barrel I'm settling on but haven't bought yet - Faxon 20" Match Series (wish they had a non-fluted version).
Talk me out of it or talk me into it.
If you have one - what muzzle device/suppressor is working for you?
What upper receiver are you using and would you recommend it. I'm leaning toward a BCM upper as I've read they run a bit small thus requiring a heat fit. As much as I would like to run a Radian or such I don't want to put more into the upper receiver than is needed. I'm a fan of the Aero M4E1 matched sets but understand this build may take something higher up the food chain.
Thanks for the input and roast LOL!
Vin
The preceding is a work of fiction. Names were changed to protect the guilty.
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - CJW - 07-25-2022
Welcome Vin .
From the most WOKE state in the Union, Georgia ..
This is going to ge a great post to follow.
Thanks for joining us..
Chuck
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - mdram - 07-25-2022
sound like you in the NOVA area, give a little better location ,a nd you may get some input for a range from members
good luck, with most barrel makers its the luck of the draw,
you have better odds with higher end barrels
for the price of the barrel your looking at i would look into criterion
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Old Bob - 07-25-2022
Welcome to the Horde & the forum Vin. You are correct, BCM upper receivers are on the tight side. I have two AR rifles with BCM uppers & both needed the thermal fit trick. I have one Colt upper that, while a little bit snug, didn't need heat to install the barrel. I have another Colt upper that was a real sloppy fit. Had to use .002" thick stainless steel shim on the barrel extension to get a tight fit in that upper. That particular Colt upper is an old one I needed to install it on a lower that has a .310" dia. pivot pin. I have one Anderson upper. A barrel extension would slip into it easily. It didn't need a shim but I did use some 620 Loctite on the extension.
I've had two different 6.5 Grendel barrels, one Odin & one Wilson Combat. The Wilson seems to be a tad more accurate than the Odin which shot right at MOA. The ammo I used initially was Hornady's 123gr AMAX which is no longer made. The 123gr ELD-M is Hornady's AMAX replacement.
All of my ARs have Wilson Combat Q-COMP muzzle brakes. I've used A2 brakes & one made by BCM. They're OK but I like the Wilson. I've never had a suppressor.
Good luck with your Grendel build...
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - VASCAR2 - 07-25-2022
Welcome to the forum Vin!
As another member mentioned Faxon is a rack grade barrel so accuracy is luck of the draw. I suggest a higher quality barrel because you have an accuracy goal. I have a couple of 16 barrel 6.5 Grendel AR-15s and 600 yards is doable. It really depends on the size of your target at 600 yards. Do you need to be able to shoot 6 or less size groups at 600 yards or are you wanting to shoot steel plates. Trying to achieve better accuracy with factory ammunition is going to require a premier barrel. The Federal Gold Metal Match, Hornady Black 123 grain ELD-M or Nosler 123 grain Custom Competition ammo might get you there.
The truly accurate 6.5 Grendel barrels are spun out by Precision Firearms, Craddock Precision, Lilja, Satern cut rifled barrel and a couple other shops. The Criterion, LaRue Tactical (ultimate upper), Wilson Combat, Raineer, Shilen and Odin get good reviews.
The 6.5 Grendel is not a high velocity flat shooting cartridge but is very capable none the less. The advantage of the 6.5 Grendel is mild recoil, good ballistics with high sectional density bullets which makes a versatile cartridge ( hunting, target shooting, self defense or plinking). There are scopes with ballistic reticles for using hold overs for shooting out to 600 yards. The ballistic trajectory of the 6.5 Grendel is very close to the 308/7.62x51.
I usually dial in my elevation at extended range and with a 20 MOA mount I can get to 1000 yards.
With the price of fuel, range fees and ammunition it is cheaper to buy the best quality barrel you can afford. Cheaper barrels need more rounds to season and shoot better. Most high end barrels require no break in and shoot good from the start. Precision Firearms offer new 6.5 Grendel forum members a discount but PF is busy so delivery time might be extended.
One other advantage of the 6.5 Grendel is its barrel life. Using approximately 31 grains of powder at 52,000 PSI the 6.5 Grendel barrels last longer than some of the hot 6 mm and 6.5 mm cartridges. Good luck and this forum is the source for good information on the 6.5 Grendel.
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - sundowner - 07-25-2022
Welcome to the horde from Wisconsin .
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-25-2022
I'm in Virginia Beach
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-25-2022
mdram Wrote:sound like you in the NOVA area, give a little better location ,a nd you may get some input for a range from members
good luck, with most barrel makers its the luck of the draw,
you have better odds with higher end barrels
for the price of the barrel your looking at i would look into criterion
I'm in Virginia Beach
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-26-2022
mdram Wrote:sound like you in the NOVA area, give a little better location ,a nd you may get some input for a range from members
good luck, with most barrel makers its the luck of the draw,
you have better odds with higher end barrels
for the price of the barrel your looking at i would look into criterion
Thanks mdram - that's exactly the kind of info I'm looking for.
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-26-2022
Old Bob Wrote:Welcome to the Horde & the forum Vin. You are correct, BCM upper receivers are on the tight side. I have two AR rifles with BCM uppers & both needed the thermal fit trick. I have one Colt upper that, while a little bit snug, didn't need heat to install the barrel. I have another Colt upper that was a real sloppy fit. Had to use .002" thick stainless steel shim on the barrel extension to get a tight fit in that upper. That particular Colt upper is an old one I needed to install it on a lower that has a .310" dia. pivot pin. I have one Anderson upper. A barrel extension would slip into it easily. It didn't need a shim but I did use some 620 Loctite on the extension.
I've had two different 6.5 Grendel barrels, one Odin & one Wilson Combat. The Wilson seems to be a tad more accurate than the Odin which shot right at MOA. The ammo I used initially was Hornady's 123gr AMAX which is no longer made. The 123gr ELD-M is Hornady's AMAX replacement.
All of my ARs have Wilson Combat Q-COMP muzzle brakes. I've used A2 brakes & one made by BCM. They're OK but I like the Wilson. I've never had a suppressor.
Good luck with your Grendel build...
Thanks for the info bob - I'll look into the Odin and Wilson gear for sure. I wasn't aware they were in this game.
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-26-2022
Hey vascar - you made a good point that I left somewhat ambiguous in my post regarding what my accuracy goals are. I'd like to be sub-moa-ish but don't need to be 1/4 or even necessarily 1/2 moa. If I could keep a 3" circle at 400 yds I'd be satisfied and will be happy as a clam if I can keep in a five-inch circle at 600. Honestly, I'd even likely be happy with moa performance.
Thanks for the scoop on the Faxon. I knew it was lower in the range than Proof or such and liked their specs. But I'm not convinced I will get out of it what I hope to. But, on the flip-side - I am not looking to keep a 2-inch group at 1,000 yds or compete with this weapon either and such do not want to invest $5,000. I'm hoping to keep the weapon under $2,000 (before the suppressor - I have a Sandman S but haven't researched if it's enough for 6.5G). But at the same token I'd like to perch this all on a Radian or ADM lower unless someone here can tell me they get the same performance out of an Aero M4E1 or equivalent. Mostly looking to ADM or Radian as I have a couple LMT (one MARS) already and would like to try one of these others for comparison. But if I'm using a BCM upper my OCD tends to want to match the receivers up too.
But then you add in another great point. Your logic is sound that I'll need a higher-end barrel to help compensate for using factory loads. I hadn't thought of it that way but will going forward.
I'll definitely check out your recommendations, thanks for taking the time to write this up. Good info!
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - just_john - 07-26-2022
Welcome to the clan, Vin, from the great nation of Texas! To your original statements, like a lot of others here, i have used several BCM uppers. Yes, they are tight. Have only had to go to the extremes of freezing the barrel on two of 'em. The others, a good hot-air gun worked well enough to get 'em started. The results are well worth it. Will say that their "blem" uppers were $49 back then and well worth it. I have seen excellent results with cheap barrels and lousy results from high-dollar barrels. My take is that the interface between the barrel and the upper makes or breaks the accuracy. No such thing as tight enough. Keep us posted on your progress.
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-26-2022
VASCAR2 Wrote:Welcome to the forum Vin!
As another member mentioned Faxon is a rack grade barrel so accuracy is luck of the draw. I suggest a higher quality barrel because you have an accuracy goal. I have a couple of 16 barrel 6.5 Grendel AR-15s and 600 yards is doable. It really depends on the size of your target at 600 yards. Do you need to be able to shoot 6 or less size groups at 600 yards or are you wanting to shoot steel plates. Trying to achieve better accuracy with factory ammunition is going to require a premier barrel. The Federal Gold Metal Match, Hornady Black 123 grain ELD-M or Nosler 123 grain Custom Competition ammo might get you there.
The truly accurate 6.5 Grendel barrels are spun out by Precision Firearms, Craddock Precision, Lilja, Satern cut rifled barrel and a couple other shops. The Criterion, LaRue Tactical (ultimate upper), Wilson Combat, Raineer, Shilen and Odin get good reviews.
The 6.5 Grendel is not a high velocity flat shooting cartridge but is very capable none the less. The advantage of the 6.5 Grendel is mild recoil, good ballistics with high sectional density bullets which makes a versatile cartridge ( hunting, target shooting, self defense or plinking). There are scopes with ballistic reticles for using hold overs for shooting out to 600 yards. The ballistic trajectory of the 6.5 Grendel is very close to the 308/7.62x51.
I usually dial in my elevation at extended range and with a 20 MOA mount I can get to 1000 yards.
With the price of fuel, range fees and ammunition it is cheaper to buy the best quality barrel you can afford. Cheaper barrels need more rounds to season and shoot better. Most high end barrels require no break in and shoot good from the start. Precision Firearms offer new 6.5 Grendel forum members a discount but PF is busy so delivery time might be extended.
One other advantage of the 6.5 Grendel is its barrel life. Using approximately 31 grains of powder at 52,000 PSI the 6.5 Grendel barrels last longer than some of the hot 6 mm and 6.5 mm cartridges. Good luck and this forum is the source for good information on the 6.5 Grendel.
Hey vascar - you made a good point that I left somewhat ambiguous in my post regarding what my accuracy goals are. I'd like to be sub-moa-ish but don't need to be 1/4 or even necessarily 1/2 moa. If I could keep a 3" circle at 400 yds I'd be satisfied and will be happy as a clam if I can keep in a five-inch circle at 600. Honestly, I'd even likely be happy with moa performance.
Thanks for the scoop on the Faxon. I knew it was lower in the range than Proof or such and liked their specs. But I'm not convinced I will get out of it what I hope to. But, on the flip-side - I am not looking to keep a 2-inch group at 1,000 yds or compete with this weapon either and such do not want to invest $5,000. I'm hoping to keep the weapon under $2,000 (before the suppressor - I have a Sandman S but haven't researched if it's enough for 6.5G). But at the same token I'd like to perch this all on a Radian or ADM lower unless someone here can tell me they get the same performance out of an Aero M4E1 or equivalent. Mostly looking to ADM or Radian as I have a couple LMT (one MARS) already and would like to try one of these others for comparison. But if I'm using a BCM upper my OCD tends to want to match the receivers up too.
But then you add in another great point. Your logic is sound that I'll need a higher-end barrel to help compensate for using factory loads. I hadn't thought of it that way but will going forward.
I'll definitely check out your recommendations, thanks for taking the time to write this up. Good info!
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - Vin - 07-26-2022
just_john Wrote:Welcome to the clan, Vin, from the great nation of Texas! To your original statements, like a lot of others here, i have used several BCM uppers. Yes, they are tight. Have only had to go to the extremes of freezing the barrel on two of 'em. The others, a good hot-air gun worked well enough to get 'em started. The results are well worth it. Will say that their "blem" uppers were $49 back then and well worth it. I have seen excellent results with cheap barrels and lousy results from high-dollar barrels. My take is that the interface between the barrel and the upper makes or breaks the accuracy. No such thing as tight enough. Keep us posted on your progress.
Thanks John - I've heard about the smaller diameter of BCM uppers from a few different directions. And I have personal experience reinforcing your beliefs about the imperativeness of that fit. Hopefully I'm moving in the right direction.
Do you have any experience with BCM lowers? I haven't used one but am a bit OCD about matching up my uppers and lowers. I have one 5.56 with a Colt upper on an Aero lower that makes it hard to sleep at night lol.
Newbie to 6.5g but not to AR - just_john - 07-27-2022
Vin, I have focused my finance to pieces above the split. I've used lowers from all over and all price ranges and don't find that it makes any significant difference. But, my last several builds have used BCM uppers and, before they raised the prices I tried to stay with them, usually able to get their blems. To your premise about being OCD, I save that for the uppers, will only use forged ones as they are a lot stronger if/when something goes catastrophically wrong.